Will Next be able to do HackMaster?

Man in the Funny Hat · Apr 12, 2012

Pretty sure Hackmaster wouldn't want it to be and is plotting even now to prevent it.

Libramarian · Apr 13, 2012

Check out these two passages from the D&D DMG and the HackMaster GMG:

D&D 4e Dungeon Master's Guide said:
Something amazing happened one time I was playing D&D with my 9-year-old son. When we finished an encounter, my son took over. He decided that he was going to search around one of the statues in the room, that he was going to get hit by a trap (an arrow would shoot out at the statue), and that he’d find a treasure there.

Hey, wait a minute. I thought I was the DM!

That was my first reaction. But I bit my tongue. I rolled damage for the trap, and I let him have his treasure. (I determined what it was -- I wasn’t about to relinquish that much control.)

He never enjoyed the game more.

I learned the most important lesson about D&D that day. I remembered that this is a game about imagination, about coming together to tell a story as a group. I learned that the players have a right to participate in telling that story -- after all, they’re playing the protagonists!

-- James Wyatt

HackMaster 4e Game Master's Guide said:
The GameMaster's Shield is a wall. It symbolizes the line of demarcation between player and GameMaster and it shall not be breached nor diminished. The GameMaster shall hold the line and not waver in his calls and decisions unless new facts are unearthed that, in the GameMaster's sole opinion, shed uncertainty on a call. The players are at constant odds with the GameMaster. It is their unspoken mission to chisel away at the wall, to bring it down brick by brick. It is the GameMaster's duty to thwart them in that effort.

Lol those are pretty opposite. How could you give newbie DM's both of these narratives about what their role is without confusing them horribly?

The HackMaster one sounds more fun to me personally, but they're both pretty extreme.

I'm sure the core DM advice text in Next will take a more middle of the road approach.

I think that's kind of unfortunate though. I like games that really present a clear and vivid image of the ideal GM. It's more fun to read at the least.

Libramarian · Apr 13, 2012

Ratskinner said:
I can see it....of course, maybe I'm mad.

All it requires is rewriting the "contract" telling the DM what's "fair". So double encounter budgets, raise all the DCs, and load the dungeon with wily traps.

Mixing the "Hack" module with the "4e" modules could make for an interesting game.

It could be interesting. That would require a good look at just how tightly tied and where 4e's "cooperative storytelling indie game" vibe is to its mechanical concepts. That certainly informed the design of Skill Challenges, but we know they're gone. In-depth, dynamic, condition-based tactical combat on the other hand certainly does not seem at odds with a Hack-style game.

Ratskinner · Apr 13, 2012

Libramarian said:
It could be interesting. That would require a good look at just how tightly tied and where 4e's "cooperative storytelling indie game" vibe is to its mechanical concepts. That certainly informed the design of Skill Challenges, but we know they're gone. In-depth, dynamic, condition-based tactical combat on the other hand certainly does not seem at odds with a Hack-style game.

Y'know, as a fan of those cooperative storytelling indie games....I never got that feel from 4e. I mean to the point of total bafflement when people "accuse" 4e of having it. Personally, having played and run both 4e and those indie games...its just a world of difference. Granted 4e seems to avoid the "mother may I" pattern/feel of earlier editions of DnD, but that's a far cry from things like Capes! or Universalis or even FATE, really.

mkill · Apr 13, 2012

DMing style and the game rules are separate elements of an RPG. You can DM every game Hackmaster style - even Spirit of the Century. The question is rather whether the game advocates that style or not.

As in pro wrestling, there are two types of Hackmaster fans - those who think this is how an RPG should work, and those who enjoy it as a parody. For WotC, this would be a fine line to walk. Whether they want it or not, they're as corporate as an RPG company can get. Corporations don't do satire very well. If I was WotC, I'd focus on making a "serious" RPG that can fit a majority of the market, and leave parodies to indie publishers like Kenzer.

From a pure marketing perspective, I don't think that Hackmaster has such a significant market share that WotC needs to bring these players "back into the fold" anyway (unlike Pathfinder). My guess is that most Hackmaster players are veterans / collectors anyway and will give 5E a try no matter what.

And I don't think Hackmaster DMs are the type who read DM advice in books for other reasons than mild amusement.

GnomeWorks · Apr 13, 2012

To me, this feels like asking if DDN should support the FATAL-style of gaming (of which I am, and hopefully forever shall be, gleefully ignorant).

For which the answer is: no. It shouldn't. It's not D&D.

HM may have had its roots in D&D, but D&D it is not. There is no more reason to support - or even consider - HM than there is to support or consider FATAL.

Doug McCrae · Apr 13, 2012

Libramarian said:
HackMaster says it's the DMs job to intimidate and punish the players, 4e says it's the DM's job to make the players the protagonists of a fantasy epic.

How could you possibly write DM advice text to cover both of those styles?

By accepting there's no One True Way to run a rpg?

It seems quite straightforward to me, that one provides different sets of advice for differing playstyles. 3e did this quite successfully imo. See the section on tailored versus status quo encounters on page 48 of the 3.5 DMG.

Doug McCrae · Apr 13, 2012

Libramarian said:
How could you give newbie DM's both of these narratives about what their role is without confusing them horribly?

I don't think D&DNext is aimed at newbie DMs, I think it's an attempt to get the longtime D&D fans back.

Advice that's clearly labelled as being for differing playstyles isn't going to be particularly confusing, any more than rules for, say, different environments such as underwater, aerial, and other planes of existence are going to be confusing. Admittedly a newb probably won't know what his preferred playstyle is, until he has a few years experience under his belt.

Umbran · Apr 14, 2012

Libramarian said:
How could you give newbie DM's both of these narratives about what their role is without confusing them horribly?

Whatever in the world makes you think a new GM should be given them both at once? Pick one narrative, give them that, and let them know that there are other ways to play, and they can investigate them in the future...

Doug McCrae said:
I don't think D&DNext is aimed at newbie DMs, I think it's an attempt to get the longtime D&D fans back.

Given what the design team has said, it seems to me that one side effect will be a game (using few rules extensions) that will be pretty darned good for new GMs. If that falls in their laps, and they don't choose to use it, they're being pretty foolish, no?

mkill · Apr 14, 2012

Doug McCrae said:
I don't think D&DNext is aimed at newbie DMs, I think it's an attempt to get the longtime D&D fans back.

If I understood Mike Mearls at the PAX panel correctly, he said that they want to make the game easier to understand for new players and DMs. And frankly, with D&Ds brand name and market share, it's the most likely first contact for any new player. It better be open to newcomers to make sure tabletop gaming has a future.