D&D 5E Jonathan Tweet & Rob Heinsoo: Making their own 5th Edition?

Alphastream

Adventurer
That might seem like a viable alternate conclusion unless one realizes that there are a lot of companies out there using the OGL but only one is overtaking WotC in the market.
Most would admit that the RPG industry is largely populated by labors of love on top of fundamentally flawed business models. Just because only one strong RPG company has risen due to the OGL does not mean others cannot do so. And, clearly a single one can be a risk.

Then one is forced to examine why Paizo is the only one overtaking WotC.
We can look at it lots of ways. Without an OGL, no Pathfinder. Yes, Paizo has risen due to excellent quality and vision and skilled industry/Wotc employees. But the OGL is what allows them to sell 3.75, where .25 or less (we can argue the percentage, of course) is from another company that sees nothing for all those sales. That's a model that is very risky and really requires a specific approach to work. In this specific case, it's a model flawed in several basic ways. It requires you to always want to make money off of core books. That isn't a given truth in the digital age, where publishing costs could vary substantially. DDI isn't perfect, but it suggests tweaks where the published book could really be of less value than the additive products, subscriptions, and the like. Let alone that we can now see how you end up not gaining core sales when other companies make their own core books - this undoes one of the fundamental theoretical benefits of the model.

Additionally, the model requires that you stay on one edition. There are many reasons why that isn't likely/desirable over time. As we see from OSRIC, even editions you think no one would play end up being a possible risk.

I love Eclipse Phase by Posthuman Studios and their open gaming license and how they even seed their own torrents. Fantastic model... for a small company and that kind of game. It would not be a good one for a larger company with a product that is a valuable brand.

I'd imagine WotC might have kept the half of the market it lost if (alongside 4.XE) they had kept a team of those particular employees working on 3.XE, made a few tweaks to the 3.XE ruleset, and put out some of the best adventures for 3.XE that anyone had seen.
While I respect you and I'm sure we would have fun at the table together, I can't disagree with you enough. WotC was having real problems moving product at the end of 3.5's life cycle and the fan base had been clear about how little they like .x versions. The truth is that only an outside company could get away with doing what would be labeled as "taking the same product and making minor changes and then repackaging it yet again".

In any edition we see people that don't want to move on. We see it now, with 4E fans and D&D Next. Paizo will see it at some point when they make a new version. The OGL makes it so you can't move forward without tremendous risk. The edition wars speaks to the problem of sustaining previous editions, especially when those editions were excellent. 3E was an excellent edition, but many of us tired of it. 4E is an excellent edition, but it didn't please everyone. Welcome to life... except the OGL allowed you to have both. That's terrible for the company that wants to move forward. Thus, it can be a terrible strategy if you want to be able to make an edition now and a new one later. It's a great strategy if you just want to sell core books and an excellent strategy if you are a small company.

Objectively, companies should be able to move forward. Paizo should be able to make the next game they want, and so should Wizards and every other company. They shouldn't create agreements or licenses where their old edition compete against them or allow others to repackage that edition and compete against them without profit in return.

In regard to the existence of Paizo, WotC's problem is their business model which requires them to cyclically lay off employees who obviously are going to continue to stay in the business.
It is very hard to find a company of WotC's size that doesn't lay people off. While the threat of a layoff resulting in competition is always possible, so are the benefits of laying off some staff while retaining the best.

Discussion of layoffs often seem to me to be some strange form of edition wars security blanket, as if it is a way to confirm WotC is evil. But that could not be further from the truth. Look at the people laid off: often they come back to work for Wizards. In the near term they are often still in good graces with WotC and we see WotC employees still hanging out and playing D&D with the ex-employees.

The most likely situation is this: WotC hires the best they can find. They promote people to new opportunities, sometimes rapidly (rather than the more typical approach of not doing so). This gives employees an opportunity to excel, but also to fail. When budget results come across, it can mean those that were promoted but did not do well are laid off. However, they receive a good severance package and opportunities for a return both exist and happen regularly.

Could it be better? Very likely. I know a lot of people that deal with these kinds of organizational issues, and it depends on the company. I don't know enough about WotC to say. I just know that those laid off seem reasonably understanding of the situation, everyone stays amicable, and many return. Not only is that not the sign of evil, it is better than what I see at many companies. Importantly, Wizards continues to bring in fantastic talent. You can't read their articles without being impressed by the quality of the personnel. And the same goes for meeting them in person. The model of layoffs isn't scaring off top talent from joining them.

It might also help if Hasbro stops using WotC as a training facility for Paizo and the rest of the industry.
Not only is that not accurate, it is not a correct view point. If you can stay friendly but competitive, everyone wins. This goes back to my original question: are you being objective?

If you want a strong RPG industry, you want great people working at one company and then going to another. You want Monte to work at Wizards, then go off and influence other companies, then work with Pathfinder, then to come back to Wizards. You want this kind of talent movement, including from Paizo to Wizards (Chris Sims is a great example that worked as a freelancer for Paizo and now works (again) full-time for Wizards). That's what takes the best practices from one place and the innovations from another and combines them.

You want companies to use models that encourage other companies to be involved. On that level, I like the OGL. But, you also want fairness and reality. You don't want a glut of low-quality d20 in stores. You don't want a company to create a game and see another company make a lot of money off of them without giving any back. You don't want monopolies either (that's why everything from Tunnels and Trolls to Shadowrun to Vampire to Pathfinder are so important). But, you don't want the monopolies to solely be broken up by clones - especially clones that don't profit the original creator. You want big innovation - new thinking to keep the industry growing rather than ratcheting slowly.

Can an OGL work? Sure, in some form. Is it clear how to do so? Not at all. Is it a no-brainer that WotC should have an OGL right now for a game they say they are 1/3rd of the way through creating? Let's go with what provides us maximum flexibility and minimum risk: the opposite.
 

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Alphastream

Adventurer
On the 13th Age side, I hope that they open up some more details and glimpses to the public, because I sure do wish I could talk about what I am reading.

As with D&D Next, I wish everyone could see more (but I understand why they can't yet).
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
Most would admit that the RPG industry is largely populated by labors of love on top of fundamentally flawed business models. Just because only one strong RPG company has risen due to the OGL does not mean others cannot do so. And, clearly a single one can be a risk.


I'm afraid your basic premise of a perceived "risk" is the fundamental difference between our views. I've outlined my points in previous posts and do not see much benefit in simply repeating them.

I will mention that I disagree that a company of their size needs to have cyclical layoffs built into their business model. I think there are obvious problems that are derived from doing so and that those chickens have been coming home to roost for some time now, and that would be happening with or without the OGL. I think your intention of casting a dislike of corporate policies as an edition war is disingenuous, as do I think that your suggestion that finding such policies as foolish means one must think they are evil. Those are both specious arguments and I'd appreciate you drop them or take them elsewhere. They won't gain any traction with me as I do not carry either flag. I further believe your acceptance of such corporate policies as a given to be ill-advised. We cannot get into politics and I've seen moderators here request such things not be delved into too deeply but we both probably have some opinions about the ties between corporations and governments and what that does to the overall economy as well as individual lives. Let's just say it ain't pretty and leave it at that. You seem accepting of it and I thoroughly disgree, so I don't think such discussions are fruitful in any event.

Here's a few additional questions that are worth mulling over for anyone following or participating in this discussion. Does Hackmaster use the OGL? Could someone run D&D-esque games with Hackmaster? If Paizo had been boxed out of 4.XE without the OGL could they have created another system to use with the Adventure Paths they began while being annointed with the Dragon and Dungeon magazine licensing? Particularly with their staff of former WotC employees? We could argue the percentages but I think we both would basically agree on the answers to the above questions.

Thank you for the detailed response. I appreciate your position even though we disgree on many of the issues involved. The one thing we know for sure, the OGL is out there now. Ignoring it is what seems risky to me given what we know now about its strengths.
 

triqui

Adventurer
Here's a few additional questions that are worth mulling over for anyone following or participating in this discussion. Does Hackmaster use the OGL? Could someone run D&D-esque games with Hackmaster? If Paizo had been boxed out of 4.XE without the OGL could they have created another system to use with the Adventure Paths they began while being annointed with the Dragon and Dungeon magazine licensing? Particularly with their staff of former WotC employees? We could argue the percentages but I think we both would basically agree on the answers to the above questions.

The question is not if Paizo could set up a game system to play their D&Desque AP on. The question is if it would be as sucessful as Pathfinder is. We have no way to know (my crystal ball isn't working today), but I'm highly confident it won't. Reading Paizo forum, one could say that a very high percentage of their customer base is formed for people who *liked* 3.5 and *did not like* 4e. So they choosed to stay with the system they liked (slightly revamped). If it were just a matter of not liking 4e, they would had gone and play Exalted, or Vampire The Masquerade, or Rolemaster or whatever. They did not, they did choose to play and *defend* the system they liked.

The edition wars are clear about it. For a *huge* amount of people it is not a matter of "choosing your game system". They go and *defend* it, whatever it is (4e or 3.X alike). They start lengthy posts and make heartly debates, both civil and flamatory. If they weren't so adamantly devouts to the previous system, they wouldn't go so far. I honestly doubt those players would had just shrugged their shoulders and go to play anything else en masse as they have done with Paizo. Wouldn't the OGL had existed, Paizo could had made some quality product, yes. Other companies have made excellent quality products over the years (like Vampire The Masquerade, Legends of the Five Rings, WFRPG etc) But those hasn't been a torpedo into WotC floating line as Pathfinfer is. Because Pathfinder isn't just *another competitor game* with excellent adventures. It is *the same game but run by a competitor* with excellent adventures.

As before: as a customer, I want OGL. But I can see WotC objections to it. Cocacola does not give up his IP either.
 
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Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
The question is not if Paizo could set up a game system to play their D&Desque AP on. The question is if it would be as sucessful as Pathfinder is. We have no way to know (my crystal ball isn't working today), but I'm highly confident it won't.


Well, we'll have to see. PF cannot last forever, unless it is- Right. So what you ask isn't even the question. The question is, if the OGL is so successful as to be able to take and hold half of WotC's marketshare, what would be strong enough to take them back?
 

Alphastream

Adventurer
Mark, you kill me when you devote a paragraph to something you don't want to discuss... let's just say your prognostication as to what I think about the corporate practices I favor or accept is incorrect. I work in the environmental field as a consultant. Agreeing with things and understanding how things work aren't the same, nor do these prevent finding better ways to do things within a standard corporate environment.

So what you ask isn't even the question. The question is, if the OGL is so successful as to be able to take and hold half of WotC's marketshare, what would be strong enough to take them back?

I don't get your point. The question Triqui made was valid: isn't it the OGL that really made Paizo a strong competitor? You really think that wasn't the absolute key? Talent and other factors are important, but we see those in all sorts of RPGs. The clear difference was being able to repackage 3.5 and take all the people normally disenchanted with an edition (plus more because 4E was so innovative) and then sell them on staying.

Look at 4E: you see many 4E gamers that are worried about D&D Next. They see change coming and like every edition before they worry about having to buy new books, about whether they will like the game, state how they could just keep playing with their old books, etc. The arguments are all rehashed - even if they are poignant and immediate for those involved. The difference here is that other companies can't republish 4E to keep it going. That is a huge difference and benefit when planning a new edition... and it was the way things were for all prior editions except with 3E.

The question you raised was why WotC hasn't discussed the OGL and raised it as a design and development question. The answer is obvious - because while the OGL model had benefits (especially to the larger industry), it had really huge detriments as well (especially to Wizards). The model needs to be rethought if it is to be used again. It would be folly to discuss the OGL when they are still making changes to the core mechanics, when they haven't formulated a product strategy, and when the business realities of an OGL can't be estimated.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
Mark, you kill me when you devote a paragraph to something you don't want to discuss...


As said, I couldn't go into it further because of previous moderator requests I have seen of others not to go into such matter in detail. But I've said that.


(. . .) let's just say your prognostication as to what I think about the corporate practices I favor or accept is incorrect.


That's a good thing.


I don't get your point. The question Triqui made was valid: isn't it the OGL that really made Paizo a strong competitor?


Not as such, and I think I was clear. It is my contention, as I said, that they would have been as strong a company without the OGL. As as to being competition, I don't believe in a zero sum market. That seems to be the major difference in our stances. I believe in the company as it stands, you and triqui believe that the OGL makes Paizo as strong as it it. The difference for you and triqui is that triqui believes the OGL is a good path forward for WotC, or at least wants them to pursue the OGL further, you believe the OGL is a bad path forward for WotC.


Do you want to discuss the situations for companies not using the OGL or using the OGL without using WotC IP? That might be an area where we have some closer ideas on how companies are doing.
 
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Nellisir

Hero
The question you raised was why WotC hasn't discussed the OGL and raised it as a design and development question. The answer is obvious - because while the OGL model had benefits (especially to the larger industry), it had really huge detriments as well (especially to Wizards). The model needs to be rethought if it is to be used again. It would be folly to discuss the OGL when they are still making changes to the core mechanics, when they haven't formulated a product strategy, and when the business realities of an OGL can't be estimated.

As Mark said, and I said, that in and of itself is a design & development issue. By deciding, at the beginning, not to use the OGL, WotC denies itself the biggest advantage of the OGL.

The longer they don't use the OGL, the less reason they have to use it, and the further they diverge from the d20-based field they engendered (which encompasses PF, M&M, the entirety of the OSR movement, Castles & Crusades, and probably a few other current games I can't recall at the moment). In fact, if one accepts the OGL as a factor in WotC's finances, they have active reason to shift away from OGL-enabled mechanics to more "proprietary" mechanics, which would seem to also require a move away from "traditional" D&D mechanics.

Is it a business decision? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean it's devoid of design repercussion, that any design repercussions are wholly negative, or that it can't be discussed as a design issue.
 

Alphastream

Adventurer
Alright, I've got to call it quits. I'm breaking my own policy on off-topic posting. If you guys open a thread about the OGL I'm glad to discuss the subject further.

Until then, we really should keep to 13th Age for this thread. I'm playing tomorrow night and wish I could talk about the stuff in this game!
 

Hal G

First Post
Nice Peter A interview with Tweet, found this on FB
Peter Adkison


Friday night I interviewed Jonathan Tweet, designer of numerous games including Ars Magica, Everway, Over The Edge, Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition, and, most recently, 13th Age. Check out part 1 of the interview here.

https://plus.google.com/<wbr>104167430236734507573/posts/<wbr>MxbACyAutQY


Gamerati - Google+ - Part 1 of the Gamerati Hangout with +Jonathan Tweet, hosted…
plus.google.comPart 1 of the Gamerati Hangout with +Jonathan Tweet, hosted by +Peter Adkison on 20 April 2012.
 

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