Realism vs. Believability and the Design of HPs, Powers and Other Things

Hussar · Apr 19, 2012

Eh, I don't mind the odd bit of mindless hack and slash from time to time. Not a steady diet mind you, but, once in a while, kicking the crap (or getting the crap kicked out by) a bunch of imaginary critters is fun.

pemerton · Apr 19, 2012

[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], that's fair enough.

But I haven't run a system that supports mindless hack & slash for a long long time. In both RM and 4e, combat is too time and mechanically intensive (and therefore too emotionally intesive, assuming people are invested in the game) to be used so lightly!

BryonD · Apr 20, 2012

Tony Vargas said:
You're the one cherry picking.

I gather you don't know what this term means and simply decided "I know you are..." was a good reply.

The scene above is a cool one, but it's one of many. Cinematic heroes pick themselves up and get back into fights they look like they've all but lost constantly. It's almost a cliche. And D&D's hp-and-healing system has always required characters get beat down and healed up to 'feel like they've been in a fight.'

So you don't see any difference in that scene and scenes that happen over and over? Because that one very specific scene gets called out all the time as a true classic.

I AGREE that heroes fight through wounds all the time and that is a cliche. And HP in EVERY edition of D&D cover that just great.

But that scene was hailed as a justification not for HP and fighting on, but specifically for surges.

[qyote]All 4e did was remove the need for the Cleric to be the cut-man in the corner, every, single, time.[/quote]
This isn't even REMOTELY correct.

I mean, I'll certainly acknowledge that it may very well be true for your personal gaming experience.

But that vast and fundamental changes that surges impose upon the play experience have been thoroughly discussed in numerous threads. Deciding those issues don't exist by fiat of your own blanket declaration is less than compelling as an argument.

Plane Sailing · Apr 21, 2012

BryonD said:
I gather you don't know what this term means and simply decided "I know you are..." was a good reply.

Leave out the insults please. You can debate without it.

Tony Vargas · Apr 21, 2012

BryonD said:
rence in that scene and scenes that happen over and over? Because that one very specific scene gets called out all the time as a true classic.

It's a particularly dramatic example. It is far from the only example.

OTOH, D&D-style in-combat clerical healing isn't exactly a staple of any genre. While heroes coming back from the brink or appearance of death is a positive cliche of action movies and pulp adventure.

I AGREE that heroes fight through wounds all the time and that is a cliche. And HP in EVERY edition of D&D cover that just great.

Not really, because the hp system is utterly dependent on healing to get everyone through each fight, often even minor fights. In older versions of the game, that healing was exclusively magical and external. Your hero couldn't fight through his wounds without the Cleric's Cure...Wounds every other round. Not very heroic. Now, he can.

There are numerous examples of second wind or shouty martial healing, not just being used at a once-in-a-lifetime moment, but in many fights. Where are the examples of glowy clerical healing being used in ever battle? Or any battle?

All 4e did was remove the need for the Cleric to be the cut-man in the corner, every, single, time.

Click to expand...

This isn't even REMOTELY correct.

Are you saying healing wasn't vital in prior eds? Or that 4e didn't give each character some self-healing ability?

But that vast and fundamental changes that surges impose upon the play experience have been thoroughly discussed in numerous threads. Deciding those issues don't exist by fiat of your own blanket declaration is less than compelling as an argument.

I don't know what you're talking about. Surges were a fundamental change, but hardly a 'vast' one. PCs still get through combats with healing. There are just more sources of it, and the ultimate limit on healing is in each character, not in the Cleric's spells/day. Not a vast change, but a vast improvement if judged by any measure other than nostalgia.

pemerton · Apr 22, 2012

[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]: I don't know if you followed the recent discussion of these issues over on this thread. If you look around the few posts before and after the one I've linked to, you'll see where that surge discussion got to.

It came to an end when a number of posters pointed out that surge expenditure and surge recovery may sometimes correspond to literal healing, other times to pushing on heroically (depending on table style, details of narration, etc). BryonD - who doesn't play a game with surges - seems to be the only one insisting that surge recovery must correspond to literal healing, as opposed to recovering one's mojo and pushing on even though still injured.

Bedrockgames · Apr 22, 2012

pemerton said:
[MENTION=996]

It came to an end when a number of posters pointed out that surge expenditure and surge recovery may sometimes correspond to literal healing, other times to pushing on heroically (depending on table style, details of narration, etc). BryonD - who doesn't play a game with surges - seems to be the only one insisting that surge recovery must correspond to literal healing, as opposed to recovering one's mojo and pushing on even though still injured.

i think that is a bit misleading. It came to an end beause it just kept going and going with people covering the same ground. Not because one side "won" the debate.

Sadras · Apr 23, 2012

pemerton said:
When I run exploration-ish scenarios, I still try to use the encounters to introduce or reinforce deeper plot points. (Ie they're not just exploration.)

I recently ran something along the lines you are describing here as a short adventure (2-3 sessions) - it was highly narrative, fast paced, roleplaying intensive with a very loose combat system and it was highly rewarding, even with the 2 character deaths.
In fact there were only 4 combat encounters throughout.
But all in all very enjoyable - very different to the usual DM style where you have those "filler" areas in a dungeon.

Shadeydm · Apr 23, 2012

Janaxstrus said:
And to be fair, I have fewer problems with mundane healing when it involves a skill, alchemical potions, healing kits etc and only heals SOME damage.

If the warlord had a heal skill that allowed to heal some amount of HPs via poultices, combat medicine, alchemical stuff, etc, I'd be ok with that.

I have a problem with a guy being peptalked from about to drop to full hit points.
Partial healing, sure, I'm willing to buy into that.

I think saying Warlord "healing peptalk" can only heal you up to your bloodied value it would have been much less jarring for me personally. OTOH I have never refused Warlord healing in the 4E games i've played

Shadeydm · Apr 23, 2012

Minigiant said:
Why can we just have warlords provide temporary hit points and have that function as morale based defense.

Hobgoblins show up.

Warlord (or Bard) says "It's time to kick some butt!"

The warlord's (or bard's) allies get 20 temporary hit points because they are all hyped up and in butt-whooping mode.

Repeat until the warlord runs out of cool things to say.

This makes a lot of sense.