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Thursday, 19th April, 2012, 04:29 PM #211
Time Agent (Lvl 24)
Eh, I don't mind the odd bit of mindless hack and slash from time to time. Not a steady diet mind you, but, once in a while, kicking the crap (or getting the crap kicked out by) a bunch of imaginary critters is fun.The rules don't give the DM their authority. The consent of the players does. - Mallus
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Thursday, 19th April, 2012, 10:56 PM #212
@Hussar, that's fair enough.
But I haven't run a system that supports mindless hack & slash for a long long time. In both RM and 4e, combat is too time and mechanically intensive (and therefore too emotionally intesive, assuming people are invested in the game) to be used so lightly!
Friday, 20th April, 2012, 12:03 AM #213
The Great Druid (Lvl 17)
So you don't see any difference in that scene and scenes that happen over and over? Because that one very specific scene gets called out all the time as a true classic.The scene above is a cool one, but it's one of many. Cinematic heroes pick themselves up and get back into fights they look like they've all but lost constantly. It's almost a cliche. And D&D's hp-and-healing system has always required characters get beat down and healed up to 'feel like they've been in a fight.'
I AGREE that heroes fight through wounds all the time and that is a cliche. And HP in EVERY edition of D&D cover that just great.
But that scene was hailed as a justification not for HP and fighting on, but specifically for surges.
[qyote]All 4e did was remove the need for the Cleric to be the cut-man in the corner, every, single, time.[/quote]
This isn't even REMOTELY correct.
I mean, I'll certainly acknowledge that it may very well be true for your personal gaming experience.
But that vast and fundamental changes that surges impose upon the play experience have been thoroughly discussed in numerous threads. Deciding those issues don't exist by fiat of your own blanket declaration is less than compelling as an argument.
Still running a great game
Saturday, 21st April, 2012, 09:57 AM #214
Grandmaster of Flowers (Lvl 18)
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I'd like things to go back and forth from "ARGH!" to "WOOO!" more frequently. - Kamikaze Midget
Saturday, 21st April, 2012, 08:06 PM #215
Orcus on an Off-Day (Lvl 22)
OTOH, D&D-style in-combat clerical healing isn't exactly a staple of any genre. While heroes coming back from the brink or appearance of death is a positive cliche of action movies and pulp adventure.
Not really, because the hp system is utterly dependent on healing to get everyone through each fight, often even minor fights. In older versions of the game, that healing was exclusively magical and external. Your hero couldn't fight through his wounds without the Cleric's Cure...Wounds every other round. Not very heroic. Now, he can.I AGREE that heroes fight through wounds all the time and that is a cliche. And HP in EVERY edition of D&D cover that just great.
There are numerous examples of second wind or shouty martial healing, not just being used at a once-in-a-lifetime moment, but in many fights. Where are the examples of glowy clerical healing being used in ever battle? Or any battle?
Are you saying healing wasn't vital in prior eds? Or that 4e didn't give each character some self-healing ability?This isn't even REMOTELY correct.All 4e did was remove the need for the Cleric to be the cut-man in the corner, every, single, time.
I don't know what you're talking about. Surges were a fundamental change, but hardly a 'vast' one. PCs still get through combats with healing. There are just more sources of it, and the ultimate limit on healing is in each character, not in the Cleric's spells/day. Not a vast change, but a vast improvement if judged by any measure other than nostalgia.But that vast and fundamental changes that surges impose upon the play experience have been thoroughly discussed in numerous threads. Deciding those issues don't exist by fiat of your own blanket declaration is less than compelling as an argument.
Sunday, 22nd April, 2012, 02:07 AM #216
@Tony Vargas: I don't know if you followed the recent discussion of these issues over on this thread. If you look around the few posts before and after the one I've linked to, you'll see where that surge discussion got to.
It came to an end when a number of posters pointed out that surge expenditure and surge recovery may sometimes correspond to literal healing, other times to pushing on heroically (depending on table style, details of narration, etc). BryonD - who doesn't play a game with surges - seems to be the only one insisting that surge recovery must correspond to literal healing, as opposed to recovering one's mojo and pushing on even though still injured.
Sunday, 22nd April, 2012, 02:43 AM #217
Superhero (Lvl 15)
Monday, 23rd April, 2012, 01:58 PM #218
Myrmidon (Lvl 10)
In fact there were only 4 combat encounters throughout.
But all in all very enjoyable - very different to the usual DM style where you have those "filler" areas in a dungeon.
Last edited by Sadras; Monday, 23rd April, 2012 at 02:03 PM.
Monday, 23rd April, 2012, 04:35 PM #219
Cutpurse (Lvl 5)
I hope with strange eons even the edition war may die.
Monday, 23rd April, 2012, 04:43 PM #220
Cutpurse (Lvl 5)