Discussion: Replacement for Leadership Feat

Maidhc O Casain · Apr 12, 2012

The Nobility and Leadership Domains grant Leadership as a bonus feat. As I'm considering a character with the Leadership domain, I'm interested in re-opening discussion of a replacement for this feat. From the original social group discussion:

Systole said:
The current 8th level domain power for Nobility gives Leadership as a bonus feat, which has been disallowed.

I propose to change the power to:

Grace of the Divine (Su): At 8th level, you can add your half your cleric level as an enhancement bonus to your Charisma score for the purpose of making Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks.

This is similar to the Strength Domain 8th level power:

Might of the Gods (Su): At 8th level, you can add your cleric level as an enhancement bonus to your Strength score for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. This bonus only applies on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.

I've changed it from full cleric level/couple times per day to half cleric level/always active because Charisma checks don't fit into rounds quite as neatly as Strength checks.

Walking Dad said:
Don't like it. The old advantage was a feat. I suggest we do the same as PFS:

Systole said:
The old one was a little bit more than a feat. Not much more, though.

I'm cool with it either way, however.

Leadership (Ex): At 8th level, you receive Leadership as a bonus feat. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus on your leadership score as long as you uphold the tenets of your deity (or divine concept if you do not venerate a deity).

Any thoughts from those better than I at judging game balance issues?

Satin Knights · Apr 12, 2012

The PFS answer is to replace Leadership with the Persuasion feat. But that seems a bit mild.

A scaling bonus to all the charisma skills is too much though. I had a PFS game with a 8th level sorcerer this weekend. His +30 bluff skill made him think he could walk all over anyone, doing anything. I finally had to tell him, no matter what your bonus is and what you roll, the village is not going to give up their children to you. He didn't like that answer.

A 1/2 scale is too much. A 1/4 scale might work. Even then, it can lead to optimized Jim Jones characters.

Systole · Apr 12, 2012

Giant In the Playground Games

Hmmm ... 1/2 scale to all checks is a bit much now that I think about it. And Charisma-based skill checks is a bit broad, as it includes Use Magic Device and Handle Animal. 1/4 scale to Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate?

jkason · Apr 16, 2012

If you're discussing the relative power level of Cha boosting, I'll point out this:

Trade domain gives a 1/2 level bonus to multiple interaction skills (Diplomacy, Bluff, and Sense Motive) 3 + primary stat times / day. It gives that as its 1st level ability, though. Not sure, then, that it's really so great as an 8th level replacement.

Would it be useful to consider a replacement that grants something like the leadership feat but on a more limited basis? The domain boost to Leadership effectively gives a Nobility/Leadership cleric higher-level cohorts / more followers, so it's a bit like a permanent buff on cohorts vs. other folks with the feat. Maybe a replacement ability would allow for a leader-cleric, then, to temporarily boost his allies, possibly allowing them to let an ally act as if he were a level higher for purposes of using one scaling class ability (so, they gain some rounds of rage, or an extra use of something whose number of uses is connected with level)? Possibly that's horribly over-powered, but certainly a boosting / inspiring sort of ability seems thematically appropriate, at least?

Maidhc O Casain · Apr 16, 2012

jkason, I think that has potential!

Systole · Apr 16, 2012

Not to throw too much cold water on this, but I don't see it working. It does nothing for fighters, for example, who have no X-number-of-uses-day abilites. Another cleric would have like 3 (two domain powers and channel). Does he get a bump on all of them? You'd have to balance this around every class.

It would be more workable to give a morale boost to saves/stats/skills, or to give temporary hit points. How about this:

When a cleric prepares his spells for the day, he may also choose to endow his companions with superior skill. For each 4 levels a cleric possesses, he may grant 1 companion a +2 morale bonus to all skill rolls linked to a chosen ability (Strength, Dexterity, etc.) for 24 hours. The chosen ability is selected by the cleric and need not be the same for all companions affected by this power, although once chosen it cannot be changed until the following day. The cleric cannot target himself with this power. At 20th level, the bonus increases to +4.

jkason · Apr 18, 2012

My intent was that the buff would effect a single per-use ability, rather than let someone use everything in their stable an extra time, but the point about classes with no such abilities is a valid one.

I like the idea of the single-attribute buff as an alternative; everyone has a primary stat, after all, so you can effectively give anyone a bump to one or more relevant class abilities in the same way you'd be bumping up a cohort's abilities.

I wonder if the 24 hour duration is too long, but when you consider this is meant to effectively replace having another entire person, it seems like a nice compromise. Having the scaling be adding people rather than bonus seems thematically appropriate, too (since the other element of Leadership is expanding followers).

Anyone else have thoughts, or should this maybe move onto a proposal?

GlassEye · Apr 18, 2012

Something like the Cavalier's Banner ability might work.

jkason · Apr 19, 2012

GlassEye said:
Something like the Cavalier's Banner ability might work.

I think maybe buffing attacks more broadly (as opposed to Banner's charges-only) might be preferable, especially since it's a morale bonus (which I believe means it won't stack with a fair number of possibly-better cleric-buffing spells), but the basic methods of that seem like another alternative: ranged buff within sight / sound of the 'leader' cleric.

I suppose at this point it may just be a matter of [MENTION=29558]Mowgli[/MENTION] picking the option he likes best and throwing a proposal out on it (I say him because his is the character who'll be using the domain, though anyone who felt strongly enough about it could of course throw in).

Systole · Apr 19, 2012

The Banner ability is very focused for physical combat. I agree with jk that the combat bonus should maybe be broader, but I'd add in +1 DC of allies' spells or something as well, so that casters aren't left out.