Proposal: Allowing Monster Feats

Satin Knights · Apr 17, 2012

Awesome Blow: Why? You are trading 4+ attacks for 1 attack with a knock back/knock down. You might get an extra d6 of damage if you knock him against a wall. Very situational.

Qik · Apr 17, 2012

In general, I bow to your sense of the rules, SK.

I guess it's because it provides a certain degree of crowd control (move the attacker away from the squishy, reposition the baddie for the rogue, etc) plus all the general advantages of a trip. I'll grant you that for when you're getting it, the damage isn't particularly exciting, but having it on top of two combat maneuvers in one standard action still makes me raise an eyebrow.

I'm not saying it's clearly problematic; it just caught my eye more than the others.

itsgottabeodin · Apr 17, 2012

My worry is that it can trip the untrippable... with no save. You could max out your CMD, but it won't matter in the least.

Satin Knights · Apr 18, 2012

The dragon that is bigger than you should be able to knock you on your butt, no matter how high your CMD is. One of the key requirements of the feat is it can only be used against an opponent smaller than yourself. So, it seems logical and fine. Even Superman can get tossed around.

That is why Awesome is in the name.

Qik · Apr 18, 2012

I'm not questioning whether the dragon should be able to do it, I'm just questioning whether the large-sized synthesist with two buddies with 4d6 sneak attack who have only been unable to hit the medium-sized quadrupedal BBEG because of their 3/4s BAB, their inability to flank him, and everybody's inability to trip him should be able to do it. I'm not saying it isn't circumstantial, I'm just saying that the ability grants an otherwise-unobtainable combat maneuver to PCs which, when used properly, could potentially shift the balance of a fight, or of 5 fights, or 10. Most of the time, it's just what the label says - "awesome" - but I do think there's the potential for an unintended power boost in limited instances.

I try to avoid over-arguing a point around here, and again, you're the rules titan, SK. If you fail to consider something overpowered, than it probably isn't. I just don't consider it to be as clear-cut a case as you seem to.

IronWolf · Apr 18, 2012

While I was initially reluctant to vote yes, now that Systole and SK have weighed in and some discussion on points made by Qik, I will add my YES.

Satin Knights · Apr 18, 2012

If the eidolon could only make one attack that round anyways, he is gaining the free trip.

If the eidolon could make multiple attacks, he is forgoing 3 times (d6 weapon + d6 energy + 10 STR + 4 Power Attack) or on average 63 damage, in order to get the knock down. Even with the 4d6 sneak, the two other rogues are not going to be able to match that kind of damage output. So, it is a net loss.

And the original maneuver still has to hit against a CMD. So, the only opponent that has six or eight legs is really going to have a significant advantage taken away. A quadruped only has a +4 vs trip which isn't much to negate when you are talking about a feat choice.

I don't see where the feat is advantageous enough to take unless the entire party is made up of pole arm wielding trip monkeys that have spent enough feats to do the Tripping AoO Domino game.

Another view: Search for the creatures that have it naturally. Cloud Giants, Purple Worms, Linorms, Tarrasque. It is a way for the Tarrasque to toy with you a little longer instead of doing a full attack and destroying you in one round.

To me as the GM, it has more cinematic effect than what I can see to exploit as a player. Cute, but not optimal.

sunshadow21 · Apr 18, 2012

I don't see any issues with any of these. They are moderately powerful, but for the level you are likely to pick them up, not overly so. Multiattack sounds nifty at 1st level, but you are still taking a penalty to hit with a full attack, and even the strongest fighter would have to be wary of using that all time. At higher levels, you run into DR, so multiple attacks have less impact, even if the BAB doesn't drop significantly. Like all of the other listed feats, it adds a cool trick to the playbook, but nothing that can't be countered easily enough by level appropriate foes.

Systole · Apr 18, 2012

I realize this is going to sound absolutely crazy, but I'm with SK on this.

A general rule of thumb is you're mortal up to level 7. You're wuxia from level 8 to 15, and you're a superhero after that. Awesome Blow kicks in at level 8 at the earliest, at which point you're bringing some pretty heavy weapons to bear. Fireball and Lightning Bolt are your lighter offensive spells. Sure, this ability lets you wade through medium sized mooks, but medium sized mooks are not a threat at this level anyway. And the bosses you're facing are probably not medium creatures either. If they are, they've probably got some pretty brutal feats/abilities/spells themselves. In that light, I really don't think Awesome Blow is overpowered.

@itsgottabeodin By the way, you're correct about 25 Strength being easy to get to. For some reason I thought the Large evolution was +4 Str not +8, which meant a magic belt at least.

EDIT: [MENTION=6673727]Qik[/MENTION] Bull Rush is a terrible combat maneuver. You're a melee combatant and you're moving your opponent out of melee. Seriously? It just doesn't count.

Qik · Apr 18, 2012

You don't need to be rude, Systole.

It's just that I think the ability to move an enemy 10 ft in any direction coupled with the ability to have them land prone could have some serious tactical advantages.