Purchasing Items, Base Value, etc.

Satin Knights · Apr 20, 2012

Alright. Like Congress giving themselves a pay raise. No one expected this to be turned down.
YES. That makes four. I will go start editing the Pearl's page.

Edit: I have bumped Venza to 16,000 and added Tritower and Martna. I could not get a real feel as to the size of the other cities we have. The diminishing chances are in a collapsible spoiler.

perrinmiller · Aug 26, 2013

Okay, I reopened this discussion with Mowgli's post quoted:

Mowgli said:
Actually, SK pointed out a flaw - the item I picked up for him is well over the current limits for the Pearl. However, with the number of characters we now have in the 8+ range it's likely time to start a discussion on raising the limits there. One of his comments also sparked a thought about DMC use - the ability to "find" items in the Pearl and/or "put a rush" on the manufacture of wanted items to get past the mandatory waiting time for commissions. I'll likely bundle both of those into the same discussion.

I think we did discuss using DMC for purchases in Arcane Row, but I don't recall ever deciding anything. 1 DMC equals 30 days TBX/TBG. What about also equaling 30 day RL for commissioning?

Venza was already upgraded to Metropolis, so I don't think we are looking at changing this. We discussed it last time with anticipation of having 15-16th level characters.

Systole · Aug 26, 2013

My first thought is that I like the idea. So ... a +5 weapon would be 50,000 gp (plus a few hundred base cost). Crafting would take 150 days. Realistically, we're looking at +3 and +4 weapons and armor being the bulk of the current expected purchases.

On a first pass, I'd say that 1 DMC allows you to 'find' an item of up to 20000gp with no roll needed and no crafting time required -- this gets you a +3 weapon or +4 armor. 2 DMC is up to 40000, which is a +4 weapon or +5/+6 armor. 3 DMC is 60000, which is +5 weapon or +7 armor. A +10 weapon would be 10 DMC - I think this is more or less reasonable.

We desperately need a DMC sink, and I think DMC-crafting is a good idea. However, it means we have to keep a special eye on the loot we give out, to make sure we're giving enough. Because in the extreme scenario where everything is awarded in cash, that would mean the non-GM players have essentially nothing past 8-10th level equipment while the GM players are perfectly kitted out. To avoid this, we should definitely have a guideline that says 'At the end of an adventure, roughly half (or two thirds or whatever) of the award should be cash and half should be usable loot that the PCs would want.' (And yes, I know I'm currently a prime offender of paying players in cash and not goodies.)

GlassEye · Aug 26, 2013

I agree we don't want to make a tier above the value for metropolis. The DMC idea sounds great, though.

Satin Knights · Aug 26, 2013

So, Systole's suggestion would put it at 1 DMC = 60 days or 20,000 gp value. Yeah, that progression seems reasonable. It would put the triggering item of Breninyr's amulet at 3 DMC and a few extra days because it was 64,000 gp.

YES.

Maidhc O Casain · Aug 27, 2013

YES to 1 DMC = 20,000 GP/60 Days Crafting.

perrinmiller · Aug 27, 2013

Okay, this feels like congress voting themselves a pay raise.

While Systole points it out in more detail, it really just boils down to 1 DMC = 60 days of wait for commissioning. That is double of what I proposed at sticking with the 1 DMC = 30 days model we have for other things.

Because of the misgivings about DM players getting better gear, maybe it should be 1 DMC = 30 days to raise the cost and to cut down on the amount of high level gear. I am worried that 1 DMC = 60 days is too generous. Also, we should just tie it to commissioning time not GP, so a player can combine commissioning and use DMC to reduce the time and not need to buy off all the commissioning time if they do not need to.

While I feel for non-DM players with high-level characters that want good gear... Nope, sorry that is not really true. There are not many of them and this policy would encourage long-term players to give something back to LPF to earn the DMC to help them.

I don't think I can support a blanket policy to make DMs provide usable treasure at the end of an adventure. It is a good recommendation for adventures that can support it, but we cannot make it a requirement. I like how GE did it at the end of his dwarven stronghold adventure, letting players put in a requests from the hoard. But that only works when the hoard exists at the end of the adventure. But at higher-levels, when you can use TBG, that hoard will likely be there.

Systole · Aug 27, 2013

I don't think we need a hard-and-fast rule, but I think we should remind and encourage GMs to include appropriate loot. I say this because left to my own devices, I tend to forget.

And while we are voting ourselves a pay raise, the thing is that DMCs are a type of currency, and in order to encourage people to keep acquiring currency, the currency has to be able to be exchanged for nice stuff. This means that the people who don't have currency will have stuff that is not quite as nice, QED. The question is, what is nice enough to be worthwhile without being so nice that it's gamebreaking and irritating to the people who don't have it? I think the extra sleeper characters are a perfect example, because people who don't have the time to GM don't have the time to run 3 characters.

The thing that I worry about is that we're talking about a linear investment of DMC, but cost-per-bonus increases exponentially. It makes the math harder, because what's fair at one end is not quite as fair at the other end. I'm honestly on the fence about what and how we should implement, and I think I'm going to sleep on it for a few days. There isn't a rush to git-r-done, is there?

perrinmiller · Aug 28, 2013

Systole said:
The thing that I worry about is that we're talking about a linear investment of DMC, but cost-per-bonus increases exponentially. It makes the math harder, because what's fair at one end is not quite as fair at the other end. I'm honestly on the fence about what and how we should implement, and I think I'm going to sleep on it for a few days. There isn't a rush to git-r-done, is there?

No real rush accept to give final approval on Mowgli's character's level-up.

I don't think we need to worry about the exponential math. The fact that it non-linearly increases costs is part of the game's leveling and worth of magic items. XP required for leveling is non-linear as well. This is why I am not even mentioning gp values, because it doesn't really have anything to do with it. I don't think anyone is looking to change crafting, and that mechanic to make 1000gp= waiting 3 days RL is currently be used regardless of level. I don't see any proposal changing it.

Allowing DMC to = time RL for reducing the wait is not much different than applying DMC to add TBX/TBG to characters.

So if 30days TBX/TBG is roughly worth saving 30 days waiting on crafting, that makes things real simple. 1 DMC = 30 days. It means that 1 day in the DM seat equals 1 day of waiting for an item to be crafted. Everything is nice and neat with 1:1 ratios. It all works out simple in my mind.

Maidhc O Casain · Aug 28, 2013

I agree with PM on the math - it should get more expensive (whether you're talking about time spent, DMC spent, or gold spent) to get better items. And if we're looking for a DMC sink, making the higher bonus items cost more DMC to cut waiting time helps that along.

I do think we should use 1 DMC for 60 days waiting, though. That makes it valuable enough that those who are on the fence about GMing can see almost immediate benefits, but it's still fairly pricey once you get characters to those upper levels where they're wanting the really good stuff fast.

Of course, I'm biased right now - I'm the one wanting that really good stuff

and waiting to get a character approved . . . (No real hurry on that, as Bren won't see action until we wrap Forbidden Isle and get SK's next adventure up and running).