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Tuesday, 24th April, 2012, 01:55 AM #61
Orcus on an Off-Day (Lvl 22)
Healing sucking chest wounds and raising the dead are pretty darn flashy in my book.
I don't think "subtle/flashy" does a good job of getting at the cleric/wizard distinction. Both classes have subtle spells, from clerical blessings and auguries to wizard mind control and illusion. And both classes have flashy spells, with clerics unleashing blasts of holy light and wizards making your head asplode.
I think the key distinction between divine magic and arcane is that divine magic is "friendly," in more than one sense. It makes clear distinctions between friend and foe, often using alignment as a basis, and it's more focused on helping and protecting its friends than harming its foes, though it can do both.
Arcane magic doesn't care about friend or foe. It's a dangerous, amoral force, and it tends to be rough on living things--one of the signature traits of arcane magic is that it has little or no capacity to heal. It can be used in both offensive and defensive ways, but its defenses all require preparation. A wizard can keep you from getting hit by nasty stuff, but if you've already been hit by nasty stuff, you'll just have to live with it.Originally Posted by Agent Elrond
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Tuesday, 24th April, 2012, 01:59 AM #62
Orcus on an Off-Day (Lvl 22)
Tuesday, 24th April, 2012, 02:14 AM #63
Time Agent (Lvl 24)
So your cleric being able to call down fire isn't good enough -- you also need to make sure that no one else can? (which, let me say, is totally fair -- not like fighters in any e have been able to chuck around fire just 'cuz they worship something made of it)Originally Posted by pauljathome
A few extra powers layered on top of what you can already do is pretty much exactly how the 3e cleric's domains worked. Expanding that to the entire party doesn't invalidate the class-based system, it just makes it more flexible and agile.And if Themes and Backgrounds go that far then D&D will really not be a class based system any more. Which is fine with me in one respect (I like non class based systems) but would be a pretty egregious step away from their "its still D&D" theme.
And, though I'm not sure it needs to be stated, nothing stops you as DM from limiting that agility and ruling that only clerics can take domain themes or whatever.
Last edited by I'm A Banana; Tuesday, 24th April, 2012 at 02:36 AM.
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Tuesday, 24th April, 2012, 02:18 AM #64
Grandfather of Assassins (Lvl 19)
Tuesday, 24th April, 2012, 02:29 AM #65
At the end of the day, to avoid CoDzilla, the set of clerical magic needs to be wound back from being able to do everything. There has to be some consideration of limitation, and when the cleric takes the Mages schtick (the poor old frail mage who gave up so much just to have the best lineup of spells possible), well, thats probably the first thing I would look at cutting back on.
Tuesday, 24th April, 2012, 02:37 AM #66
Enchanter (Lvl 12)
And what about Druids and Invokers? Are they not known for being the Wrath of nature/the gods? More that than being supportive in any sense of the word anyway.
As for healbots, major healing should be restricted ritual. Anything more complicated than a minor patch up job to keep people moving, breaks the dramatic flow of combat. And it really throws a wrench into the mechanical balance of combat when you suddenly have or don't have a combat healer.
If "A" is broken, that isn't a valid reason for "B" to be so, even if they vary in degree.
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Tuesday, 24th April, 2012, 02:45 AM #67
The Great Druid (Lvl 17)
Tuesday, 24th April, 2012, 04:15 AM #68
A devout Catholic, would consider the Eucharist, a miracle and the central miracle of their spiritual lives at that, and yet it is not very Harm, or Flame Strike flashy is it?
A Catholic Priest absolving sins is pretty miraculous, and to believers happens everyday, but would be " boring and reactive" by your standards.
Christians of a more Charasmatic faith persuasion see miracles in the Speaking of Tongues and being able to ignore the venom of snakes in snake handling traditions.
The ancient Greeks had a knowledge of engineering that would have temple doors open automatically once the heat from a fire reached a certain temperature, and yet the height of religious expression would be an Augury read from animal intestines.
Real world examples of Miracles, be it Auguries, Plagues of Locust, ( which of course happen naturally as well), etc Do seem to be on a subtle scale.
I guess Mosses was just not Awesome enough for you. Humanity has given the concept of Miracles quite a bit of attention, and most are subtle, from a certain point of view. I do not care for "Gamist" Miracles myself.
Last edited by satori01; Tuesday, 24th April, 2012 at 04:22 AM.
Tuesday, 24th April, 2012, 04:43 AM #69
Tuesday, 24th April, 2012, 06:20 AM #70
Waghalter (Lvl 7)
The Gods in the default D&D setting are very obviously very real. Only insane nutjobs would question their existence or power. In that context worshiping a God really isn't about Faith
Last edited by pauljathome; Tuesday, 24th April, 2012 at 06:37 AM.