D&D 5E Monte Cook Leaves WotC - No Longer working on D&D Next [updated]

JRRNeiklot · Apr 27, 2012

ExploderWizard said:
Sure the novels do well, that isn't in dispute. How popular would they be if they were not based in rpg campaign worlds? If these novels had no connection to the game or its fans I don't think they would be quite as successful.

I don't know about this. I know a lot of people who have read Salvatore's Drizzt books who have wouldn't know a D&D game if it bit them in the ass.

Incenjucar · Apr 27, 2012

4E is, for many people, a direction they would prefer D&D to go. There is a significant number of people who would happily leave WotC and "D&D Classic" behind to pursue that direction, with or without the decades of concepts. Because of the limited venue of RPGs, people will naturally want to have the biggest possible audience, so they're going to want the existing game to move in that direction rather than to hope that an indie game can prosper.

JRRNeiklot · Apr 27, 2012

talok55 said:
A bit off topic, but I wonder how badly the Spellplauge hurt FR novel sales. I know I pretty much stopped reading them after this horrendous travesty. Maybe that is part of the reason for a new edition. Maybe 4E and it's baggage (Spellplauge, retconning the multiverse, etc.) hurt the entire D&D brand as much as the RPG.

I know I haven't picked up a single FR novel since they blew it up.

thecasualoblivion · Apr 27, 2012

jsaving said:
While I agree that no one should take any "victory laps" here, I do think it's important to understand why we find ourselves in this predicament. If the evidence we have from The Rouse, several sales reports posted on ENWorld, and WotC's own behavior are to be believed, 5e is coming years ahead of schedule solely because 4e wasn't appealing enough to the average gamer to stop the encroachment of alternatives like Pathfinder. If true, then people who are crowing about Monte's departure because they think it will steer 5e closer to 4e are missing the mark. He wasn't a guy who was hired at random and then somehow convinced WotC to sabotage 4e and bring back his beloved 3e. Rather, he was hired precisely because the underlying sales data was so poor that WotC felt its only option was to create a 3e-infused new edition -- a market reality that won't change simply because he has left.

The extent of 4E's predicament is debatable, but I certainly don't think creating a 3E-infused new edition is the obvious conclusion. That isn't what they're advertising, and they aren't going to reach their sales goals without converting a majority of the current 4E community, which a 3E-infused edition will not accomplish. The 4E community is too big to ignore. A lot of us prefer how it changed things, and like it or not we're part of D&D now. 5E can't afford to turn back the clock and pretend 4E never happened, not if it wants to end the edition wars and unite the community.

As for Monte, I don't see him as somebody who was going to sabotage 4E to bring back 3E. I saw him as somebody who didn't "get it" in regards to 4E, and would botch the implementation of 4E into 5E(supposedly the edition for everybody) out of ignorance.

thecasualoblivion · Apr 27, 2012

ForeverSlayer said:
The main problem that I see is that some 4th edition fans have, themselves, deemed 4th edition as the new standard and if something has to come after it it better be modeled on that design but taken to the next step. 4th edition didn't raise the bar in game design, it brought us something different and some of them just can't accept the fact that many of us didn't like it. The game can be 100% but still miss what that certain individual is looking for in a game.

The part I have in bold is something I really hate hearing from that crowd.

The point I try to make as a 4E fan is that WotC wants to unite the D&D community, which means they want 4E fans on board. The fact is, in order to do that 5E is going to have to compete with 4E, and at the very least come close to the experience we got with 4E. While many didn't like it, many did like it and aren't interested in going back.

thecasualoblivion · Apr 27, 2012

Incenjucar said:
Absolutely. My issues with 5E are much larger than Monte Cook. Even Robert Schwalb, one of my favorite designers ever, has posted a blog entry that left me shaking my head in disappointment.

If we're thinking of the same blog post, that being the one that presented the 3E Fighter as the finest representative of the class across all editions, that was the most horrifying thing anyone at WotC has said in regards to 5E.

Vyvyan Basterd · Apr 27, 2012

ForeverSlayer said:
I have noticed that there are posters who say "Well I didn't like the what I've been hearing about 5th edition but I'm sorry to see Monte go." Well that's fine and all but Monte hasn't been alone in the development so far. You can't blame Monte on the parts of Next that you think are bad just because he may be your least favorite designer out of the bunch. Your favorite designer might have come up with that one idea that you don't like.

Someone way back commented about Monte starting up the edition war. Good God what a joke!

People are coming up with the craziest crap in order to make the man look bad. Most of these guys that are still floating around have all had their fingers in the previous edition soup so if you are going to hate then you need to spread the wealth.

People are also coming up with "the craziest crap" in order to make WotC look bad. People seem willing to give Monte the benefit of the doubt, but then ignore his comments about his fellow designers and his sentiments on whether they will create a good game. I hope that the split was the best option for both parties and that neither was the "bad guy," but we'll never know definitively.

ForeverSlayer said:
In my honest opinion I don't think him leaving was over a small issue. Your lead designer doesn't just leave during a new product unless he has some good reason. In my opinion, I believe it may have something to do with the direction corporate wants Next to go and Monte didn't agree. It could be that others wanted to go as well but Monte was the only one in the position with the ability to leave. Needing a job does keep you where you are even when you don't agree with the direction of something.

Maybe we will be able to see why Monte left if and when D&D Next comes out.

I don't consider contract negotiations and his rights as a contract employee to do side work a small issue, so I don't see how so many people are jumping to the conclusion that this was a dispute over the direction of 5E. He's got a Big Announcement coming soon. Maybe WotC doesn't like their employees splitting their time on side projects.

Iosue · Apr 27, 2012

thecasualoblivion said:
The point I try to make as a 4E fan is that WotC wants to unite the D&D community, which means they want 4E fans on board. The fact is, in order to do that 5E is going to have to compete with 4E, and at the very least come close to the experience we got with 4E. While many didn't like it, many did like it and aren't interested in going back.

And many did like it and are still interested in what 5e may offer.

Bedrockgames · Apr 27, 2012

Incenjucar said:
4E is, for many people, a direction they would prefer D&D to go. There is a significant number of people who would happily leave WotC and "D&D Classic" behind to pursue that direction, with or without the decades of concepts. Because of the limited venue of RPGs, people will naturally want to have the biggest possible audience, so they're going to want the existing game to move in that direction rather than to hope that an indie game can prosper.

Sure but some people (including more than a few 4e fans) see 4e as much more indie

frankthedm · Apr 27, 2012

Nemesis Destiny said:
how does offering anchovies as an option hurt the people that don't want to eat them on their 'zza?

Because if a group of people hate anchovies, they will avoid your pizza place so their one anchovy loving friend CAN'T contaminate their pizza order. "Guys, if we call to Obed's Pizza, Frank is going to want to stink up the gametable with a triple anchovy, lets call Luigi's Pizza instead."
Because they stink up the oven and in a small pizza joint, that could cause a customer to walk out the door.
Because they stink up the oven and so the employee "forgets" to reorder more.
Because when you are lethally allergic to seafood, even a small chance a tiny piece will cross-contaminate your pizza isn't worth the risk of ordering from a place that has them.