D&D 5E Monte Cook Leaves WotC - No Longer working on D&D Next [updated]

Maybe he didn't have the other opportunity 6 months ago and figured it was acceptable to work under the condition of
exclusiveness.
If he's ready to announce this other opportunity, he's probably been working on it at home the last 6 months. The timing does not fit.

Besides, after spending nearly 10 years as his own boss doing contract work for anybody he felt like, why would he handcuff his creative output while he was working on an outside project?

No, I don't know Monte Cook, but I know writing and non-compete crap. Once you get out from yoke of non-compete clauses you don't put your head back in the noose. Not even for D&D Next.
 

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talok55

First Post
You're trying to say that the 4E fanbase is bigger than the fanbase of Pathfinder, 3.5, 3.0, 1E, 2E, the retroclones etc, combined? If that's true, I guess most of them have been playing 4E without buying any books or subscribing to DDI because even Hasbro might deem the kind of sales numbers such a fanbase would give 4E to be acceptable. Pathfinder's fanbase alone likely dwarfs 4E's (or they just spend a lot more money on RPGs) and seems to be growing while 4E's is constantly shrinking. Face it, the 4E crowd is much smaller than 4E fans would like to believe. I'm sure it's a significant number but not big enough to sustain a brand managed by a subsidiary of Hasbro.
 

Roland55

First Post
I'm not really shocked at some poster's reactions to this, but I am very disappointed. It takes a stubborn sort of petty bias to crow about this. It would be like everyone who took issue with James Wyatt's "Talking with guards and fairies isn't FUN!" comments and celebrated him leaving the company.

Monte's a pro, and is input is valuable. He's shown with his Malhavoc/AU/AE/Ptolus stuff, not to mention all his work in 2e and 3e, that he's got real design chops. Celebrating his leaving seems vindictive and small. He was the target of a lot of un-earned, disproportionate hate, and it's sad to see that the haters may have been taken more seriously than their complaints generally warrant.



I got that sense, too. Not about the design specifics, but about the corporate environment there now, which was part of the reason he left in the first place. He mentioned he might still contract some work, which is good to hear, that the relationship isn't entirely soured.

Not sure that bodes very well for the management's influence on 5e, if they were able to make him feel unwelcome.

I kind of hope to one day find out about what keeps happening there at WotC to get good designers to leave.

I've been a part of the 'corporate culture' since I left college many ... many years ago. It's not an environment where creative people seem comfortable -- what with every mid-level manager and executive eager to second-guess your work, often without anything substantive to offer. Given that he spent years as his own boss, this had to be tough to live with.

Still, he put up with that environment for quite some time. I take him at his word -- there is some corporate philosophy or decision that he fundamentally disagrees with. Perhaps, some day, we will know what that 'bone of contention' was.

It may have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of 5e or our enjoyment of it.

Too early to tell.
 

I can't imagine it would be even remotely "safe" to go back to 1e/2e. WotC is talking a good game at the moment about an edition everyone can feel a part of, but the market realities underlying their actions stem from one specific edition -- 3e/Pathfinder -- being so much bigger than all other fanbases combined that it is supplanting D&D as the default option around the gaming table. I grew up on Chainmail and very much enjoy 1e/2e/BECMI/Bluebox/Redbox, but let's not kid ourselves here and say that any of those fanbases are even 1/10 the size of 3e/Pathfinder.

WotC's main concern here is to recapture the single largest RPG fanbase at the moment, that being the 3e/Pathfinder crowd. Their next priority is to retain enough fundamental 4e features that the somewhat smaller but still numerically important 4e fanbase will feel sufficiently respected to stick with the new edition rather than abandoning D&D entirely. I'm sure they wouldn't mind reeling in some of the people still playing 1e, 2e, etc, but WotC would never risk driving away both 3e *and* 4e players to attract the numerically small groups of D&D players who don't like either one.

It's never easy to accept that one's favored edition isn't seen by a majority of the gaming community as being better than what came before. I see this around my 4e gaming table, whose members run the gamut of the "stages of grief" -- from disbelief ("4e must be selling better than they say!") to anger ("those 3e grognards sabotaged 4e!") to depression ("no edition could ever be as good as 4e"). So I can understand people not wanting to believe that The Rouse, the various market surveys published at ENWorld and elsewhere, and WotC's own actions indicate a sales problem so severe that D&D simply could not continue in its present 4e form. What I can't understand is the impulse to label WotC as the bad guy and Monte as the embodiment of everything that's wrong with WotC. If 4e were selling well, WotC's usual bureaucratic inertia coupled with their huge investment in 4e would guarantee it a substantially longer production run. The fact that this didn't happen doesn't make WotC "bad" -- it just means WotC is responding to a desperate situation as best it can.

I can understand why some 4e fans feel like the current environment isn't providing much in the way of validation, but it's important not to take these things personally. High-selling products aren't always "good," nor are low-selling products always "bad". The many sound innovations 4e contributed to D&D as a whole don't become unsound simply because the ruleset turned in a subpar performance in the marketplace. At the same time, though, we can't put ourselves in a situation where we feel compelled to insist 4e is selling well -- or at least would be if the dastardly WotC hadn't pulled the plug on it -- in order to self-validate our feelings about 4e. The best thing we can do is accept that 4e wasn't as popular as we'd hoped, recognize that this market judgment in no way invalidates our personal beliefs regarding 4e, and then do what we can to ensure its strongest features are represented in a new edition that will hopefully have something for everyone.

I find this entire post ridiculous, 3E/PF is not in any way, shape or form larger than the rest of D&D community combined. The part on capturing the alleged largest D&D faction at the expense of the others when this goes against everything 5E is supposed to stand for is particularly ridiculous.

Again, all this bickering over market share misses the point. Whatever the size of the 3E/PF, 4E, and OSR/AD&D crowds are respective to each other, they are all too large for WotC and 5e to tell them to go screw.
 

I find this entire post ridiculous, 3E/PF is not in any way, shape or form larger than the rest of D&D community combined. The part on capturing the alleged largest D&D faction at the expense of the others when this goes against everything 5E is supposed to stand for is particularly ridiculous.

Again, all this bickering over market share misses the point. Whatever the size of the 3E/PF, 4E, and OSR/AD&D crowds are respective to each other, they are all too large for WotC and 5e to tell them to go screw.

I Think he was just saying they are the largest group right now, and that could possily be the case. I think he was just saying it is time for fans of 4e to realize how unpopular fourth edition was and that any edition trying to win over the 3e crowd is going to have to abandone many 4e concepts from the core. You just aren't going to get them on board for healing surges, non vancian magic, daily/encounter powers etc. They want a game that still has the core shape of 3e and previous editions.

I understand 4e people are probably very upset and agree being respectful is something we all need to do. But take a look at the threads here. Both sides are definitely overly aggressive but i see alot of 4e posters simply refusing to accept other peoples' opinions about 4e (if we say we dont like it, they say why, if we tell them why, they take it apart piece by piece and say we are wrong). Now I am not saying everyone is doing this. And for sure people on my side have taken equally silly stances (telling 4e players their balance issues in 3e were non existant). But I am honestly getting dizzy from some of these discussions and I have to take a step back from some of the more persuasive arguments because you end up being convinced up is down and black is white if don't take a close look at the rhetoric.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
I Think he was just saying they are the largest group right now, and that could possily be the case. I think he was just saying it is time for fans of 4e to realize how unpopular fourth edition was and that any edition trying to win over the 3e crowd is going to have to abandone many 4e concepts from the core. You just aren't going to get them on board for healing surges, non vancian magic, daily/encounter powers etc. They want a game that still has the core shape of 3e and previous editions.

I understand 4e people are probably very upset and agree being respectful is something we all need to do. But take a look at the threads here. Both sides are definitely overly aggressive but i see alot of 4e posters simply refusing to accept other peoples' opinions about 4e (if we say we dont like it, they say why, if we tell them why, they take it apart piece by piece and say we are wrong). Now I am not saying everyone is doing this. And for sure people on my side have taken equally silly stances (telling 4e players their balance issues in 3e were non existant). But I am honestly getting dizzy from some of these discussions and I have to take a step back from some of the more persuasive arguments because you end up being convinced up is down and black is white if don't take a close look at the rhetoric.


WotC is well aware of how 4E did in the market and seems to have decided it isn't enough of a market share for D&D going forward. A revised 4E for the fifth edition is going to lose some 4E fans (maybe a lot of them), and is unlikely to bring back any fans that rejected 4E. It certainly won't bring back any of the pre-3.XE lapsed players that WotC says they wish to attract. So, if WotC wants to broaden its market share again, it seems likely they will have to move away from 4E significantly though whether that means in a new or old direction is unclear. I'm not sure what they can do to bring back D&D dominance at this stage.
 

I Think he was just saying they are the largest group right now, and that could possily be the case. I think he was just saying it is time for fans of 4e to realize how unpopular fourth edition was and that any edition trying to win over the 3e crowd is going to have to abandone many 4e concepts from the core. You just aren't going to get them on board for healing surges, non vancian magic, daily/encounter powers etc. They want a game that still has the core shape of 3e and previous editions.

I understand 4e people are probably very upset and agree being respectful is something we all need to do. But take a look at the threads here. Both sides are definitely overly aggressive but i see alot of 4e posters simply refusing to accept other peoples' opinions about 4e (if we say we dont like it, they say why, if we tell them why, they take it apart piece by piece and say we are wrong). Now I am not saying everyone is doing this. And for sure people on my side have taken equally silly stances (telling 4e players their balance issues in 3e were non existant). But I am honestly getting dizzy from some of these discussions and I have to take a step back from some of the more persuasive arguments because you end up being convinced up is down and black is white if don't take a close look at the rhetoric.

That really isn't the issue. The issue is what 5E is going to need to do to bring the 4E players on board, instead of just continuing to play 4E. Atoning for the sins of 4E isn't really a part of that to those players, as opposed to whether or not the game does a good enough job at what we want from D&D to convince us to switch. This isn't about edition wars, its about being able to play the game we want.
 

WotC is well aware of how 4E did in the market and seems to have decided it isn't enough of a market share for D&D going forward. A revised 4E for the fifth edition is going to lose some 4E fans (maybe a lot of them), and is unlikely to bring back any fans that rejected 4E. It certainly won't bring back any of the pre-3.XE lapsed players that WotC says they wish to attract. So, if WotC wants to broaden its market share again, it seems likely they will have to move away from 4E significantly though whether that means in a new or old direction is unclear. I'm not sure what they can do to bring back D&D dominance at this stage.

I am not sure either. I think it is a long shot, but if they are going to take it they should really go for broke. But as much as I would like to see D&D have a new golden age, I think the damage may already be done. I am certainly not going to want to play a watered down hybrid of 4E and 3E (and I don't think pathfinder fans or 4e fans want that either). I also was quite happy with D&D as it was before 4E, so I am not interested in a new game that shows off Mearls' and coompany's creativity as designers (which I don't think anyone questions). To me 4e was new coke. I don't want a new recipe, i just want the classic recipe. That doesn't mean just re-issue old editions but go back to the tradition of incremental adjustments that are more about reflecting where the fans are with the game than trying to lead them in a wild new direction.

That isn't what I am expecting to happen, that is just what my desires are as a consumer. For me there are a lot of dealbreakers that would cause me to lose interest. This isn't because I want to be mean or stubborn, it is just that I only play games that I really like.
 

That really isn't the issue. The issue is what 5E is going to need to do to bring the 4E players on board, instead of just continuing to play 4E. Atoning for the sins of 4E isn't really a part of that to those players, as opposed to whether or not the game does a good enough job at what we want from D&D to convince us to switch. This isn't about edition wars, its about being able to play the game we want.

I understand. But my point is I am starting to believe they are trying to do the impossible. Clearly you know what you want from D&D and so do I. You and I have had discussions here and on other forums so I think we have a sense of what the other wants in an RPG. My impression is we want things that are largely incompatible. I don't think Mike Mearls could design a game that would make both TheCasualOblivion and BedrockGames happy. He could easily design two seperate games that would make us happy. But one game (even with modular ad ons) is probably not going to work given what both of us have listed as expectations of the core game. Now take that problem and magnify it to a macro level. One grouo says they have to have stuff like surges or encounter powers, the other says those things are dealbreakers. One group once parity between the classes, another says parity (in the 4e sense) is a dealbreaker. One group says the game has to go forward and break new ground the other says it wants a return to real D&D.
 


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