How Many Classes Do We Really Need?

Steely_Dan

First Post
Exactly. They didn't say that every class from a PH1 would be in *as a class*. They said they would be doable.

Yep, but while I think Warlord should be a Theme/Kit/Subclass etc, some may revolt if it is not its own class, and I want the Monk to be its own class, though some think it should be a Subclass etc (of Fighter, Priest or Rogue what-have-you), and that's totally understandable.
 

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I am not sure why we are wrangling about what should or should not be included.

Who's wrangling? We're having a fun discussion about how many classes are needed to achieve the stated goal of allowing some version of every past PH1 class.

The design goal is inclusion, not exclusion.

And I'm not aware anyone on this thread wants to exclude anything that's been a PH1 class in the past. The question is, does every such *class* need to be a *class* in 5e? Because if a class can be represented in some other way, it opens up many other interesting character customization options!

Nobody's talking about eliminating rangers (to take one example). We're asking, Why should only fighters be rangers? We're talking about druids, rogues, wizards, and everyone else being able to be rangers too! And in fact, that actually helps represent past editions - where, after all, some rangers have wizard spells, and some have druid spells, while some people don't want them to have spells at all. Capiche?

If my use of classes outside 1e is going to stop you from playing 5e, well that is on you.

Again with the personal stuff. If you honestly see this thread as me and other people wanting to take your favorite character out behind the shed and shoot it, I suggest you go out and get some air.

I haven't ever said a single thing about the inclusion of classes stopping me from playing 5e. Neither has anybody else that I can recall. So kindly stop putting words in our mouths.
 

Yep, but while I think Warlord should be a Theme/Kit/Subclass etc, some may revolt if it is not its own class, and I want the Monk to be its own class, though some think it should be a Subclass etc (of Fighter, Priest or Rogue what-have-you), and that's totally understandable.

Of course. That's in fact what this thread is about - to discuss how many classes are really needed to capture the vision of past PH1's.

Of course there are differences of opinion. If everyone was agreed, there'd be no need for the thread.
 

Steely_Dan

First Post
That's in fact what this thread is about - to discuss how many classes are really needed to capture the vision of past PH1's.

Okay, well, in the end I think we only need 2:

-Warrior Guy (fighter, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue etc).

-Magic Guy (cleric, druid, wizard etc).

The rest is fluffy, IMO.
 

Okay, well, in the end I think we only need 2:

-Warrior Guy (fighter, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue etc).

-Magic Guy (cleric, druid, wizard etc).

The rest is fluffy, IMO.

That strikes me as a bit too thin on the ground, actually. :) The distinction between arcane and divine magic is basic to D&D, IMO. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing different mechanics for them, as it's always grated on me that clerics cast 'spells' just like wizards. I have to admit there's no real precedent for that in older editions, but hey.

And while I suppose the rogue could be folded into the fighter, I have my doubts about how well it would work out... plus I think that really is a bridge too far, tradition-wise. The Big Four are D&D classics. Even granted that step, I also have very grave doubts that the monk could be folded in to a 'Warrior Guy' class at all easily. It just has too much stuff, and too much different stuff.
 


ren1999

First Post
We need the four classic classes for the beginner's box to show how most classes work. We need as many classes as are popular from the previous editions for advanced books.

I'm liking everything about the direction of the Pathfinder's Beginner Box other than the hit points are still too low starting.

This is my latest revision on how to roll one of the 4 classic character classes for beginners.

5th Next Edition Proposal
_________________________

Roll a player-character.

Roll the player-character's ability scores for Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, and

Charisma.
Roll 4d6 and discard the lowest roll.
Add the remaining 3d6 and apply the score to 1 ability.
Repeat the rolls for the remaining five abilities.
If all scores are below 13, reroll.

Player characters get a +1 to all abilities at 11th and 21st level.
In addition, they get a +1 to a chosen ability score at 11th and 21st.

Choose a race.

Dwarf
Racial Bonus: +1 Strength
Racial Penalty: -1 Dexterity

Halfling
Racial Bonus: +1 Dexterity
Racial Penalty: -1 Strength

Human
Racial Bonus: +1 Wisdom
Racial Penalty: -1 to an Ability

Elf
Racial Bonus: +1 Intelligence
Racial Penalty: -1 Constitution

Custom Race
Racial Bonus: +1 to an Ability
Racial Penalty: -1 to an Ability

Choose a class.

Fighter
Class Bonus: +1 Strength
Class Penalty: -1 Charisma
Hit Points: Constitution score+12
Level-Up: +12 hit points
Healing Surges: 12

Rogue
Class Bonus: +1 Dexterity
Class Penalty: -1 Constitution
Hit Points: Constitution score+10
Level-Up: +10 hit points
Healing Surges: 10

Cleric
Class Bonus: +1 Wisdom
Class Penalty: -1 Intelligence
Hit Points: Constitution score+8
Level-Up: +8 hit points
Healing Surges: 8

Wizard
Class Bonus: +1 Intelligence
Class Penalty: -1 Strength
Hit Points: Constitution score+6
Level-Up: +6 hit points
Healing Surges: 6

Custom Class
Class Bonus: +1 to an Ability
Class Penalty: -1 to an Ability
Hit Points: Constitution score+9
Level-Up: +9 hit points
Healing Surges: 9

Determine the ability modifiers for each ability.
If the ability score is 8 or 9, the ability modifier is (-1), 10-11(0), 12-13(+1)
Add this ability modifier bonus to 1/2 the character's level.

A maximum possible Strength ability for a 30th level (30/2=+15 to the modifier)character would be
Constitution score(12)
+roll 1d6(+1-6)
+level-up(+1-4)
+racial bonus(+1)
+class bonus(+1)
+maximum stacked skill and feat bonus(+1-3)
+maximum stacked magic item and spell bonus(+1-3)
=Strength: 30(modifiers total +25)

The maximum possible strength based melee attack and damage would be 1d20+25 to hit 3d12+25 damage.

Roll a non-player-character.
Roll 3d6 for the ability scores.
Give no healing surge ability.
Hit points are by the hit dice of +1d4, +1d6, +1d8, +1d10, or +1d12 per monster level.
Everything else is the same as rolling for a player character.

Leveling up to 11th level,
damage is increased to 2[w],
burst+1,
range +1 square,
target 2 adjacent foes or help 2 allies, etc..
the character can reduce the power damage to any lower number
or delay the power damage and effects from his or her own powers by 1 round.

Leveling up to 21st level,
damage is increased to 3[w],
burst +2 squares,
range +2 squares,
target 3 adjacent foes or help 3 allies,
powers can be delayed by 2 rounds,
powers can be made permanent

1d20+skill rank modifiers+1/2 challenger's class levels +/- situation modifiers
versus S'mon's Difficulty Class Table
10: Easy Heroic task
15: Moderate Heroic task
20: Hard Heroic Task, Easy Paragon Task
25: Moderate Paragon Task
30: Hard Paragon Task, Easy Epic Task
35: Moderate Epic Task
40: Hard Epic Task

Spell Difficulty Class=base 10+relevant spell ability modifier(includes 1/2 caster's level)

Advice for Players
Player characters should always enter an encounter with maximum hit points.
Players should be cured of all poison and affliction effects if possible.

Advice for Dungeon Masters
Do away with critical hits and fumbles at least during low level adventures as players can easily die.

Building Monsters
Reduce the Monster's level to within 3 levels of the Party' average level. For example, a first level party can

face a 3rd level monster or be expected to run.
For every reduced level, reduce a monsters statistics by 1.
If the monster's stat goes down to a single digit, add 10.
If the monster's stat goes to a negative digit, change it to a positive digit, i.e. -4 becomes a +4
Change the monster's total hit points by finding the character with the highest at-will damage. Give artillery

type monsters that maximum at-will damage in hit points,
brutes get twice the maximum at-will damage in hit points,
controllers get three times the maximum at-will damage in hit points,
Monster's Armor Class and Defenses should not be more than 3 points above the character with the highest stats.
Monster attacks and maximum damage should not allow it to kill a character in less than 3 rounds. Find the

character with the lowest hit points and divide the points by 3. If this number falls bellow 1d4 damage, set the

monster damage to 1d4+ability modifier.

Advice for the 5th Edition Game System
Unite Opportunity/Reaction, etc.. all into Triggered Actions.

Unite Feats/Exploits/Skills/Utilities/Spells/Rituals/Prayers into 4 power categories

Exploits/Skills/Spells/Prayers

All characters can learn a number of powers(including feats and skills) based on 2+their intelligence modifier per

level.
Characters don't need to drop, relearn, anything. They can have ready any spell they want already memorized during

an encounter.
But all characters are limited by the 4th edition encounter and daily restrictions. That means a 3rd level

character can only use 2 daily powers from a list of daily spells per day and 2 encounter powers from their

memorized list per encounter.

Most Rogue Skills will be at-will powers.

at 1st level, 1 encounter power, 1 daily power
at 2nd level, 2, 1
at 3rd, 2, 2
4th, 3, 2
5th, 3, 3
6th, 4, 3
etc..

This in no way makes any character too powerful. If anything, it adds variety and strategy to the game. It also

allows players to test out lesser wanted spells. This rule only applies to player characters. The more industrious

players will have a list of spells to try out during any encounter, or a list of martial exploits if they are

playing a fighter or rogue type.

Monsters however, should be limited in known powers to make it easier for the DM to manage them.

I'd like to take all the useful and unique spells from 3.5 edition and put them in as subcategories of about 30

spells and 30 prayers. 30 feats and 30 martial exploits, 30 rogue or ranger skills, etc..
We'll order spells and prayers by what they do and then change one word traditional D&D spells to 2 words to make

them more descriptive.
 
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Eldritch_Lord

Adventurer
I'd buy it if pantheism was ever a part of D&D cosmology, but that's pretty much never really been the case. But even if it was... that would put Cleric and Druid on equal footing in my eyes (polytheism and pantheism being two sides of a divine coin), rather than Druid being sublimated underneath the Cleric.

I actually believe the Druid really should be a part of the "Big Five" of classes, as the main class of the pantheistic (or primal) source of power in D&D.

Two points. First, the druid has been pantheistic in D&D since 1e. Take a look at the 1e druid writeup:

PHB1 said:
The druid is a sub-class of clerics. They are the only absolute neutrals (see ALIGNMENT), viewing good and evil, law and chaos, as balancing forces of nature which are necessary for the continuation of all things. As priests of nature, they must have a minimum wisdom of 12 and a charisma of 15. Both of these major attributes must exceed 15 if a druid is to gain a 10% bonus to earned experience.

Druids can be visualized as medieval cousins of what the ancient Celtic sect of Druids would have become had it survived the Roman conquest. They hold trees (particularly oak and ash), the sun, and the moon as deities. Mistletoe is the holy symbol of druids, and it gives power to their spells. They have an obligation to protect trees and wild plants, crops, and to a lesser extent, their human followers and animals. Thus, druids will never destroy woodlands or crops no matter what the circumstances.

They don't worship gods of nature primarily, but rather nature itself. They don't have the alignment-focused abilities of the cleric (not even turning undead), they don't anthropomorphize their "gods," and they don't have the social duties of polytheistic/henotheistic clerics.

Second, I didn't say the druid shouldn't be its own class--in 2e, cleric and druid are both subclasses under the Priest class grouping, and the cleric and druid have been on even footing as "real classes" since then. I don't think, however, that we need a "primal" power source in addition to the divine one; that was part of my point, that polytheism and pantheism can easily fall under the same source.

You can certainly stick the ranger, druid, barbarian, and warden under the Primal source. But then, why not have a Shadow source for assassins and hexblades and illusionists, and a Asian Chi source for monks and samurai and ninjas, and other sources for more niche classes? Primal is simply a more specific Divine, just as Shadow is a more specific Arcane and Chi (which I'm quite thankful never made it into 4e as planned) is a more specific Martial. There is no need to give the druid a privileged position next to the fighter, wizard, rogue, and cleric.
 

GM Dave

First Post
Second, I didn't say the druid shouldn't be its own class--in 2e, cleric and druid are both subclasses under the Priest class grouping, and the cleric and druid have been on even footing as "real classes" since then. I don't think, however, that we need a "primal" power source in addition to the divine one; that was part of my point, that polytheism and pantheism can easily fall under the same source.
.

Sorry for the bit of historical off topic drift but druids being folded under Priests was a real mess of bad copy and paste.

It is a good a lesson in what happens when people don't pay attention to the materials they are 'designing' and just stick square peg into round hole.

If you look at the 1st ed Druid spell progression it has the Druid learning 1st level spells at 1st level, 2nd level spells at 2nd level, and 3rd level spells at 3rd level. This is why the Druid had a higher XP cost at these levels then the Cleric (along with some other abilities). The arrangement had been done because Druid's did not get Cure Light Wounds on their 1st level spells (though Animal Friendship is an awesome spell in this version).

Take that material and dump it into the Priest class with the Priest progression and the Druid is being charged higher XP to advance at lower levels then a Cleric for similar or less value.

The level of spells are also shuffled to allow for a single set of spells for all priests to use. This means that Druids that used to Speak with Animals at level 1 (useful when you have the Animal Friendship spell) now have to wait till level 3 to gain this ability. Charm Person or Mammal is also now delayed to level 3.

Going for a single 'unification' of things can have some serious side effects if the designers don't think through their changes.
 

Holy Bovine

First Post
10.

Fighter (or better Warrior - always liked it better than 'fighter')
Cavalier/Paladin (Cavaliers are any alignment but LG - Paladins are LG but with a much less strict code of conduct than previous edition Paladins & no spellcasting. Spell-like abilities are OK)
Ranger (no spellcasting again spell-like abilities are OK)
Barbarian (NO SPELLCAST---err I think that's a given in fact I would almost like to see them go back to being fearful & distrustful of magic to the point that they forgo magical items and get inherent bonuses)
Scoundrel (ditch brads, rouges & theives!)
Assassin (*evil* but in a good way :erm: )
Monk (I too like the Grand Master of Flowers)
Cleric/Priest (Specialty Priests to be precise. The Cleric is the generalist)
Sorcerer/Mage (really isn't this how a huge portion of magic users in fiction are portrayed? Where was Gandalf's spellbook? Merlin's? Harry Dresden's? Call it a wizard if you like but lets ditch spellbooks!)
Druid (True Neutral all the way. If you don't like that go be a Cleric and worship a nature deity!)

I'd like there to be less magic using classes myself but I realize this is a true minority opinion.
 

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