[Proposal] Non-Lethal Combat Arena

It has come to my attention that apparently it is not just against the rules for players to not engage in Player vs. Player Combat, but it is now apparently unacceptable for said players to get into arguments with each other in a manner that would be considered "unprofessional" by potential employers, even if said arguments reflect a significant difference in philosophy, religion, or other factors between the characters involved.

Thus it is my belief that in order to allow such disagreements a healthy means of being resolved in game that does not rely upon role playing out hefty in character arguments that can ultimately lead to the bogging down of the games storyline, that we should put serious consideration into the possibility of whether or not a Non-Lethal Combat Arena where players can duke out their disagreements can be performed within the confines of the Living Pathfinder Worldsetting.

I would like to further suggest that this system be solely for the purpose of facilitating the resolution of heated conflicts and thus that it not award any sort of rewards for the characters involved other than potential role-playing related rewards that have no mechanical benefit to the characters.

The original reason the arena was suggested was because a low level person could get away with snobbing a higher level with no consequence. It was designed for a "put up or shut up" way of ending an argument , but also a way for other players to do something while waiting for a game to start.

That being said, I think it died out because no one could find a way to balance out the potential issues that rose from allowing PVP. The big one being a lack of respect among players, which in turn bleeds into the RP of the game.

Personally, PVP should never be allowed in a living world. If you don't like someone, either as a character or a player, be the better man and don't play with them. You also have the option of ignoring a response from them in game.

DalkonCledwin said:

It has come to my attention that [...] it is now apparently unacceptable for said players to get into arguments with each other in a manner that would be considered "unprofessional" by potential employers, even if said arguments reflect a significant difference in philosophy, religion, or other factors between the characters involved.

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Entirely separate from the arena proposal is this issue, which is where RP begins and ends. My take on it is this: Any person or persons employed by a real-world company who were incapable of holding it together for five minutes without getting into a shouting match with a coworker for whatever reason -- religious, philospohical, or otherwise -- would be escorted off the premises by security within fifteen minutes.

Now, I'm all for leeway when it comes to RP, but there is a difference between arguing with another PC in the DWI and arguing with another PC in front of a prospective employer who had already indicated (a) her displeasure with the argument and (b) her willingness to fire unsatisfactory employees. If a character wants to paint himself pink and run naked and screaming in front of a legion of enemy bowmen, that may be a perfectly valid RP choice. However, I don't think the player has cause to complain when the character ends up a corpse with three dozen arrows sticking out of it.

Systole said:

Entirely separate from the arena proposal is this issue, which is where RP begins and ends. My take on it is this: Any person or persons employed by a real-world company who were incapable of holding it together for five minutes without getting into a shouting match with a coworker for whatever reason -- religious, philospohical, or otherwise -- would be escorted off the premises by security within fifteen minutes.

Now, I'm all for leeway when it comes to RP, but there is a difference between arguing with another PC in the DWI and arguing with another PC in front of a prospective employer who had already indicated (a) her displeasure with the argument and (b) her willingness to fire unsatisfactory employees. If a character wants to paint himself pink and run naked and screaming in front of a legion of enemy bowmen, that may be a perfectly valid RP choice. However, I don't think the player has cause to complain when the character ends up a corpse with three dozen arrows sticking out of it.

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First off, in the situation you are referencing (the one that spurred me to create this thread in the first place), the interaction in question was spurred on by a huge amount of culture clash between an Elf, a Human, and apparently a Dwarf. These three races stereotypically have a hard time getting along in even the most ideal situations to begin with, add to the fact that Maui is from a far less than civilized society, and that Fae'shiel is from a society that could rightly be classified as somewhat xenophobic and its a downright recipe for disaster.

So yes, it could be argued that one or both of the characters (Maui or Fae'shiel) could be the better 'man' and walk away from the situation, which in a way is what I had Fae'shiel do after her rant in my last in character post. But keep in mind that I don't see Maui or Fae'shiel getting along on a long term basis. But at the same time I am not personally at odds with Jbear. I personally think he is a magnicient role player, and respect him as such, and hope he feels the same way about me.

I just felt it important to establish the way in which Fae'shiel views Maui as being somewhat antagonistic towards him. I also recognize that Maui has yet to give Fae'shiel permission to call him by his given name, which based on comments given by both of our characters seems to be something of importance to BOTH of our characters, so I figure it would be better from a role playing perspective if she were to refer to him as something else other than his given name until such permission is given. The problem is that the only name that Fae'shiel can readily apply to someone who behaves the way Maui does is in effect an affectionate term (from her perspective) for a child seeing as how in many ways Fae'shiel views Maui as a child even if he doesn't view himself that way. I do not mean to be offensive with the way that Fae'shiel comes off, but she really has nothing else to call him unless you would prefer she call him 'Human' which could cause all sorts of confusion with Ven in the party...

Oh and when I said that Fae'shiel would be willing to knock Maui down a peg if PvP were allowed. I was specifically at the time remembering the previous discussion on this topic where in a non-lethal combat system had been hmm'ed and hawed over. And for reference, limiting a Combat Arena solely for the purpose of allowing High Level Players the opportunity to knock around lower level players who are mouthing off at them is a vast misapplication of the dueling arena technology in my opinion. Especially from a Role Playing Perspective.

I think that Systole makes a valid point.

Also, while I'm not opposed to the concept of a nonlethal arena, I have to say that I find it to be a dubious means to resolve IC disputes. In fact, I don't think it makes any sense from an IC perspective, since I don't really see the society of Venza as the kind of place that would espouse a (formalized?) battle context as the means to resolving a conflict. "Cultural differences? Fight it out in the arena!" It just really doesn't make sense to me, especially in such a multicultural context as Venza.

Also, and I don't mean to cross the line here, but I have to say that I think you push the line with Fae'shiel, DC. RPing is one thing, but I think it's important not to lose sight of the nature of what we're doing here - a game in which we mutually depend on one another for the efficacy of the shared experience. I personally think it's important to have a balance between the two, and frankly, if one is going to err on one side, I think they should do so on the side of cooperation and respect for everyone else's experience. Again, I don't mean to lecture or anything, but in light of a lot of what I've seen of Fae'shiel, as well as this thread, it was a point I couldn't help but raise.

The way I have Fae'shiel planned she is more the type to develop friendships via mutual shared experience in the field of battle, much like what has basically happened between her and Marcus (in a more profound way than even I seem to have expected), and by proxy the way she extended her friendship to Daylily via their shared desire to protect Kazanto.

In effect it is my personal belief that until Maui proves himself to her through a shared combat experience that she will not consider him as a friend. And in fact for the moment she sees him as something of a nuissance or at the very least something that resembles an immature child. I think Maui may have a very similar outlook on his would be companions, which in a way is why the two of them rub each other the wrong way so often.

It also doesn't help that Maui has a tendency to refer to Fae'shiel with the term "forgotten daughter" which is a significant insult as far as Fae'shiel is concerned. By proxy Fae'shiel has a tendency to refer to Maui as "Little Man" which I have gathered is a significant insult to Maui. Based upon my own interpretations of Maui's character and the way that I have been portraying Fae'shiel it would strike me as inappropriate for Fae'shiel to refer to Maui by his given name until such time as he gives her permission to do so. Especially given his most recent retort to her that she is to "call him nothing." Likewise while Fae'shiel has no problem letting people call her Fae'shiel, Fae'shiel Aeros, or heck even just Aeros, she refuses to let all but her closest friends call her simply Fae an honor that only Daylily has earned and which will soon likely include Marcus as well.

Also you have to understand that Fae'shiel is incredibly proud of her racial lineage. Which is in part why I engaged in that tirade with her when Maui tried to explain why he called her Forgotten Daughter. I wanted to explain where she was coming from for the benefit of the CHARACTER Maui, not so much for the benefit of anyone other than the character. It made perfect sense to me from a role playing perspective to go on that rant in response to Maui's statements pureley from the in character relational development perspective as it explained a bit of where Fae'shiel herself is coming from as well as explaining to a character about the world of the sidhe in case he just really doesn't know how it actually works.

Now this isn't to say that Fae'shiel might actually be way off the mark with regard to the Fey in Maui's little corner of the world. She could be, she really doesn't know anything about where Maui is from. She was purely discussing her points from her perspective. And in my opinion ignorance of that sort is perfectly acceptable. However what she does know is that she herself and those of her ancestors that she has seen the records of, are actually native to the continent that Venza is on. I can't however speak about any elves not directly related to Fae'shiel.

I hope that explains a little bit more about where I am coming from here?

The first issue is that the PCs are behaving in a wildly unprofessional manner in front of their prospective employer despite a clear warning. From the employer's point of view, she's already taking a risk by hiring a handful of virtual unknowns to go into the field and retrieve her stolen goods. However, two of the prospective employees can't even get out of the boardroom without sniping at each other. It's becoming increasingly difficult to justify the prospective employer not saying, "Yeah ... I don't think this is going to work out. Clearly, hiring adventurers was a huge mistake. Thanks for coming by, and don't let the door hit you on the way out."

The second issue is that three paragraphs of monologue followed by one sentence of walking away isn't really 'walking away.' For all intents and purposes, it's a three paragraph monologue, which was done in front of the prospective employer after she'd made it absolutely clear she didn't want to hear it. Again, I try to grant leeway, but this was a provocation of the NPC in question.

Looking over the game thread, I think Systole's points on this specific incident are well-made. There was a very strong reprimand IC from the employer about the two characters having at one another, and she's been presented consistently as someone who doesn't take guff from people. I think the parameters of the scene were fairly well set-up, then, and--just like not bothering to make Perception checks when entering a cave that says "Traps set ahead"--the choices of the PC's have lead logically to increased ire from the potential employer.

Navigating social situations is part of Role Play; it seems more than reasonable to me that it should similarly hold pitfalls and negative consequences based on character choices as much as combat. Seems like Fae'shiel and Maui are experiencing some of those, which strikes me (if no one else) as an opportunity for character growth more than an unfair obstacle to same.


In the general case, I'm not sure adding combat (lethal or non) seems to me to be a particularly good way to mitigate PC antipathy, any more than I think taking it to the alley and bashing each other helps solve an argument in the real world. Unless you're proposing that the 'winner' of such duels gains some sort of 'you can't argue with me' rights out of the bout, my general inclination is that an arena just adds "AND he / she beat the crap out of me" to the list of reasons why two characters don't get along, especially in the case of headstrong characters.

I remember in one of SS21's games, my first with Audra, perrinmiller's Cleric/Paladin got on Audra's last nerve and she went off on her and stalked off. ICly, I think PM did a smashing job with said character and got just the reaction she should from a 'streetwise' person. I think everyone enjoyed the clash, then we rolled on and worked together. It was a clash between Audra's "streetwise" sort of sense and his characters "Raised in the Temple" mentality. I don't now about him, but I really enjoyed playing the discord against our teamwork. It lead to Audra's nickname "The Bait" and to a run of jokes that, I hope, had us all laughing by the conclusion of the adventure.

Not every clash degrades into a shouting match (though Audra did yell that one time, and PM's character just got confused trying to figure out what had set her off) and doesn't have to result in hard feelings.

That said, I look forward to the possibility of playing alongside Perrin again.

One problem with having this arena is the potential of higher level characters bulling their way over newer / lower level characters. The 'shame ' effect on new players could cause new players to find lpf distasteful.