Time to bring back the prose?

Minigiant said:

Fireball (3rd level Arcane Spell)
​

After spending an action to cast the fireball spell, a glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the range of 400ft, blossoms into an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar. Every creature and unattenuated object within the 20-ft.-radius spread of the explosion is dealt 5d6 fire damage unless they make a Dexterity saving throw for half damage.

The explosion creates almost no pressure. It does, however, set fire to combustibles and can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze.

If the fireball spell is prepared at a higher spell slot than 3rd, it deals an additional 2d6 fire damage per level higher than the 3rd.​

Click to expand...

You're gonna need to color the info text a different color from the other text (or make it bolder/italicized/etc.) because it's hard to notice the rules text...

DMBrendon said:

I would much prefer "You wiggle your fingers and shoot fire at an enemy adjacent to you, causing 1d6 points of damage." than "1d6 damage to 1 adjacent target".

Click to expand...

I strongly disagree. "You wiggle your fingers and fire shoots out" should be separate flavour text. The rule should be written "Range: 50 feet. Attack: d20 + Intelligence modifier. Damage: 1d6 fire." Now I can enjoy the fluff but also quickly find the relevant rule. If I want to look up the range, it is immediately there at a glance, and I do not not have to read the whole spell to search for the relevant information.

Minigiant's rule example looks to me like Pathfinder spells. Hard to search easily. When simple rules questions arise at the table, it should not require reading two or three paragraphs.

shidaku said:

I want flavor to mean something. If flavor is just going to be "This is a flaming orb", then that's pointless. I want to see creative stuff like "Thunt's last thought as the fireball touched his nose was 'oooo, shiny!'"
Flavor text that is little more than "You wiggle your fingers and shoot fire." is about as creative as if there was no flavor at all.

Click to expand...

Your example sounds more like the flavor text on a Magic Card. And much like that it necessitates being completely separate from the mechanics. This creates a big disconnect between the two. I would much rather see them mixed together. It creates a sense that the fluff describes the mechanics and the mechanics describe the fluff, not that someone sat down, wrote a little rules widget, and the came up with some fluff to justify it afterwards, which is exactly the sensation I get from the segregated format of 4e.

I'd like to see a little more than just a presentational change: a flaming orb might require an endurance check for taqrgets in heavy armor or cause some fatigue; it might do a little less damage in the rain or snow. It's not that important what these effects are; I just want actual consequences that highlight the fact that the PC's aren't just dealing abstract damage but really interacting with the fantasy world but do not require a lot of extra bookkeeping.

This is another reason I'd prefer to have many fewer powers: that would allow more space to explore these kind of interactions.

Oni said:

It creates a sense that the fluff describes the mechanics and the mechanics describe the fluff, not that someone sat down, wrote a little rules widget, and the came up with some fluff to justify it afterwards, which is exactly the sensation I get from the segregated format of 4e.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I follow this.

Suppose WotC hired an editor to go through and rewrite the 4e spells - it would still be the case that an important influence on their design was their mechanical viability. Why does the illusion of it being otherwise matter?

pemerton said:

I'm not sure I follow this.

Suppose WotC hired an editor to go through and rewrite the 4e spells - it would still be the case that an important influence on their design was their mechanical viability. Why does the illusion of it being otherwise matter?

Click to expand...

Because, frankly, perception does matter. It's not unlike a magic show without all the pomp and circumstance and none of the stage patter, the guy just standing there doing the tricks. The tricks might be just as good and clever but it won't be remotely as engaging. You're not just there for the tricks, you're there for the theatre of it, I don't believe an RPG is any different.

Besides, it would be very odd indeed to sit down and come with with a laundry list of mechanics and then splice the fluff into them after the fact if the end result was meant to be intertwined. The 4e format encourages design a certain way, change the format, change the design. Just like how different mechanics encourage different sorts of play.

Reflavoring spells is pretty much the lowest form of creativity possible in the RPG medium, imo. If players are putzing around with that, to me that's a sign of a boring, disempowering, rail-roady campaign.

The more 5e steers games away from creative reflavoring towards creative problem-solving and creative story-telling, the better. They're much more fun.

I hope that 5e doesn't so much as mention reflavoring, reskinning, refluffing or anything like that.

MichaelSomething said:

You're gonna need to color the info text a different color from the other text (or make it bolder/italicized/etc.) because it's hard to notice the rules text...

Click to expand...

Tallifer said:

I strongly disagree. "You wiggle your fingers and fire shoots out" should be separate flavour text. The rule should be written "Range: 50 feet. Attack: d20 + Intelligence modifier. Damage: 1d6 fire." Now I can enjoy the fluff but also quickly find the relevant rule. If I want to look up the range, it is immediately there at a glance, and I do not not have to read the whole spell to search for the relevant information.

Minigiant's rule example looks to me like Pathfinder spells. Hard to search easily. When simple rules questions arise at the table, it should not require reading two or three paragraphs.

Click to expand...

I guess the indent color makes bolder not dramatic enough. My intent is that if you read it straight, it reads as nice fluffy prose. But it you are just skimming for the specifics; the range, area, effects, and damage are all bolded.

Fireball (3rd level Arcane Spell)

After spending an action to cast the fireball spell, a glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the range of 400ft, blossoms into an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar. Every creature and unattended object within the 20-ft.-radius spread of the explosion is dealt 5d6 fire damage unless they make a Dexterity saving throw for half damage.

The explosion creates almost no pressure. It does, however, set fire to combustibles and can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze.

If the fireball spell is prepared at a higher spell slot than 3rd, it deals an additional 2d6 fire damage per level higher than the 3rd.




Survival (Skill)

Survival is your ability to ability to keep yourself and others safe and well while it the wild. It is a common skill for barbarians, rangers, and druids as many take the Pathfinder, Savage, Hunter, Tracker, or Primal themes. Those who spend large swaths of time in the wilderness are often seen with the Survival skill to deal with the thick forests or harsh deserts.

You can get along with the wild by making a simple DC 10 with a Survival check. Success lets you move up to one-half your speed while hunting and foraging. No food or water supplies are needed or expended then.
You can gain a +2 bonus on all saving throws against severe weather while moving, or gain a +4 bonus if you remain stationary by making a DC 15 Survival check.

Another possible application is noticing natural landmarks to keep from getting lost. You can scan the environment to avoid natural hazards, such as quicksand, thin ice, and poisonous shrub blooms. You can even monitor the sky and predict the weather 24 hours in advance or endure temperatures between -10 and 110 degrees Fahrenheit in appropriate clothing. All of these applications are succeed by beating a DC 15.

If you are a ranger or gained the Track ability from a background, you can also find and follow the tracks left behind by others. You cannot follow tracks of those under the effect of the pass without trace spell unless you are under the effect the retrace spell which returns the footprints and broken branches back to their unhidden state.

You may typically grant the same bonus to one other character for every 1 point by which your Survival check result exceeds the DC. Basic Survival checks usual occur each day in the wilderness or whenever a hazard presents itself. When using Survival to track a character or animal, checks are made according to distance.

There are 3 options:

1. Text that reads like flowery prose and includes rules that are impossible to find (AD&D style)
2. Text that reads like dry description and includes rules that are impossible to find (3.x style)
3. Text that reads like a game rulebook yet still includes rules that are difficult to find (4e style)
4. Text that reads like a game rulebook and includes rules that are easy to find (???)

I'll take 4, but I don't think Wizards of the Coast is capable (or willing) to write a game like that. If I had to choose between 1 and 2, I'd take 1.

Click to expand...

Nitpick: those are 4 options.

As for me, I'd like flowery prose, AD&D style not Gygax style, for fluff and rules close to 4e, but easier to find.

EDIT: However, Minigiant's idea (with bolding) is brilliant, and I wish I could xp him.

D&D spells have been written with stat blocks for many editions. It's useful for lookup and settling rules arguments. If spells are going to have technical facts (ranges, damage, casting time), then they need to have stat blocks.

Call of Cthulhu, in most editions, has spells without stat blocks. Many spells in that system have vague effects, or things that are open to Keeper interpretation. Great--magic should be like that in CoC, but not in D&D.

Mixing in all the stats with the text makes the rules of a spell less clear. It's not something I'm interested in.