Time to bring back the prose?

OnlineDM · May 1, 2012

Morrus said:
The point is, however badly written it may be, it was designed to be read, not just referenced.

Current rule books resemble reference books. You look something up in then. You don't pull them off the shelf and read them.

Morrus - you keep referring to current books, and it sounds like you're only talking about books from 2008. Have you read Heroes of the Feywild? Even Heroes of the Fallen Lands / Forgotten Kingdoms are much better in this respect than the 4e PHB1.

D&D 4e has gotten better about being readable over the years. Really.

Steely_Dan · May 1, 2012

OnlineDM said:
D&D 4e has gotten better about being readable over the years. Really.

That is true, The Demonomicon, The Plane Above and Below weren't bad, I just think the core first 3 (PHB etc) they release in an edition should be a little more engaging.

GX.Sigma · May 1, 2012

There are 3 options:

1. Text that reads like flowery prose and includes rules that are impossible to find (AD&D style)
2. Text that reads like dry description and includes rules that are impossible to find (3.x style)
3. Text that reads like a game rulebook yet still includes rules that are difficult to find (4e style)
4. Text that reads like a game rulebook and includes rules that are easy to find (???)

I'll take 4, but I don't think Wizards of the Coast is capable (or willing) to write a game like that. If I had to choose between 1 and 2, I'd take 1.

Morrus · May 1, 2012

OnlineDM said:
Morrus - you keep referring to current books, and it sounds like you're only talking about books from 2008. Have you read Heroes of the Feywild? Even Heroes of the Fallen Lands / Forgotten Kingdoms are much better in this respect than the 4e PHB1.

D&D 4e has gotten better about being readable over the years. Really.

Nope. They lost me after 4 books. 5E needs to grab me within 4 books. In other words, do it from the start.

The PHB, DMG and MM are the ones that have to engage me. They're the core.

Incenjucar · May 1, 2012

Morrus said:
Nope. They lost me after 4 books. 5E needs to grab me within 4 books. In other words, do it from the start.

The PHB, DMG and MM are the ones that have to engage me. They're the core.

It goes both ways. So many RPGs have way too much yammering in them. I've put down a lot of game books from having to put too much effort into finding where they start talking about the rules.

herrozerro · May 1, 2012

Steely_Dan said:
But as all PHBs up until 4th Ed are interesting to read, why not?

I'm not advocating super cryptic and vague rules.

I didnt find the 3.x phb to be much different from 4es myself. And i have no experience before that so i dont see why people think 4e suddenly broke some kind of barrier.

Morrus · May 2, 2012

Incenjucar said:
It goes both ways. So many RPGs have way too much yammering in them. I've put down a lot of game books from having to put too much effort into finding where they start talking about the rules.

Nobody is advocating they be confusing. It's not a binary choice between a dictionary and a sonnet.

Tallifer · May 2, 2012

Halivar said:
So what would you prefer?
1) A more flowery, open-to interpretation writing style, even if it means more vagueness, less precision, and possibly contradictions.
2) A continuation of concise, concrete language using defined terms and keywords.

My personality tends toward the literary and convoluted. I am not mechanically minded or scientific: I am an English teacher. I have written countless essays and read countless books to research for said essays. I prefer to read nineteenth century novels or scholarly history books. I would rather read Malory in Middle English than any of the works of modern fantasy.

Nonetheless when I want to consult a book of rules, I want to immediately and effortlessly understand the points and the exceptions. This is probably because I am not mechanically apt, so I need very clear rules. The Fourth Edition is the most clearly written and organized set of rules for Dungeons & Dragons, and I want it to stay that way.

Put the flowery text in the read-aloud text in adventures and in the descriptions of the world in the campaign setting books.

OnlineDM · May 2, 2012

Morrus said:
Nope. They lost me after 4 books. 5E needs to grab me within 4 books. In other words, do it from the start.

The PHB, DMG and MM are the ones that have to engage me. They're the core.

I completely agree that the first books have to be engaging, and that the first 4e books were not.

What I'm saying, though, is that the later 4e books are still accessible to younger readers, but ALSO engaging. I want (and expect) to see the first D&D Next books to be written in a similar way, which I expect you will enjoy.

Early 4e style: Not so good, and I'm glad they changed.
Later 4e style: Excellent, in my opinion. Clear, accessible, AND engaging.

I hope and expect to see the D&D Next books written in a similar style to the later 4e books, and I'm expecting that you'll like it, based on what you've said you want in a book.

braro · May 2, 2012

OnlineDM said:
I completely agree that the first books have to be engaging, and that the first 4e books were not.

What I'm saying, though, is that the later 4e books are still accessible to younger readers, but ALSO engaging. I want (and expect) to see the first D&D Next books to be written in a similar way, which I expect you will enjoy.

Early 4e style: Not so good, and I'm glad they changed.
Later 4e style: Excellent, in my opinion. Clear, accessible, AND engaging.

I hope and expect to see the D&D Next books written in a similar style to the later 4e books, and I'm expecting that you'll like it, based on what you've said you want in a book.

I kind of wonder if the early 4e books were so "Lore-Light" because of the bad reaction to the idea of stipulating lore, and the amount of new mechanics that had to be covered?

I know when I was reading them, I was basically just reading them to build characters, since I was "bringing with me" a ton of stuff from 3e.

Edit: Also, the mechanics informed a lot for me, which is how I ended up with the human ranger raised by the eladrin, who was the first human to be awarded the position of Stormwarden in all of history, who found ancient hide armor in the ruins of the ancient Tiefling empire as one of his capstone magical items. He was accompanied by an eladrin fighter who was his adoptive father's son, and the fighter's abilities were all informed by the mechanics (Using a spear and a longsword interchangably as the situation came about, having a bit of magic and ritual casting, and so on) as well as a half-elf rogue who had somehow been tricked in to forming a pact with a rival fey-lord (the half-elf racial powers, and the multiclass feats) and was traveling with them to find a way to be free.

And then they were all killed by Irontooth. Le Sigh.