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Thursday, 3rd May, 2012, 12:56 AM #21
Defender (Lvl 8)
There were times in 3rd & 4th edition when a player would look at me and say "I do X" . I would stumble a bit because X wasn't defined in the rules. I know that this isn't exactly what you're talking about but I am hoping that this language change extends to actions in the game as well, the ability for the GM to say " make a dexterity check" in response to an interesting action described by a player is something I hope 5e accomplishes as wellFollow me on Twitter @darryl4nderson.
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Thursday, 3rd May, 2012, 01:55 AM #22
Hydra (Lvl 25)
Thursday, 3rd May, 2012, 01:57 AM #23
Skills/Talents that come as Adjectives can make a world of difference in player psychology. They don't define what you do but rather color how you do whatever you're doing.
Don't have "Skill Training: Intimidate" and "Intimidate Checks." Have the Skill / Talent called "Imposing."
Skill Training: Bluff? No more. Try "Glib."
Skill Training: Endurance? How about "Tough?"
Even going from Perception check to "Perceptive" helps steer things in this direction.
I'd even shy away from giving players exact modifiers and checks. Let the scale slide a little bit based on role-playing and situation. If the role-playing scenario the player puts forward is a natural fit the "Skilled" character could automatically succeed, or at least enjoy a significant modifier than an "Unskilled" character wouldn't get in the same situation.
In general it's a delight to have players prepare contrivances and schemes to develop their characters' advantages towards a critical non-combat contest with the kind of gusto they normally reserve for combat tactics.
- Marty Lund
Thursday, 3rd May, 2012, 02:00 AM #24
Hydra (Lvl 25)
Thursday, 3rd May, 2012, 02:14 AM #25
Let the Attribute and Skill in question be determined by the description of the task. The huge, imposing Half-Orc Barbarian picks the guy up by the shift and starts frothing at the mouth does it really matter than he's got an 8 Charisma?
The small, menacing Halfling carving up a pork-shank dramatically while making "idle chat" about how the merchant's daughter is in fine health and how tragic it is when "accidents" happen to the young is definitely milking his 16 Charisma and it doesn't matter one wit than he's 3 feet tall and has an 8 Strength.
- Marty Lund
Last edited by mlund; Thursday, 3rd May, 2012 at 02:17 AM.
Thursday, 3rd May, 2012, 02:48 AM #26
Grandmaster of Flowers (Lvl 18)
And it goes beyond just skill names. The very presentation of the rules within the manuals is where it starts, and some of the discussion threads you mention in the news article get into that aspect as well.
In 1e the rules were presented in an entertaining and readable (albeit chaotic) form, to the point where some of us still pull them out just to read now and then.
In 4e the rules were presented in a technical, organized manner with roughly the entertainment value of watching paint dry. To be read only when necessary.
Somewhere between those there's an ideal presentation - organized enough that required information can be found quickly and easily, yet engaging enough to be bathroom reading long after one has moved on to another system.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *DM: Telenet 1984-1994, Riveria 1995-2007, Decast 2008 -->* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Thursday, 3rd May, 2012, 03:28 AM #27
Acolyte (Lvl 2)
The implied skill system has its merits. But what I am not looking forward to is the rules lawyer who tries to justify using charisma to climb a wall or strength to remember obscure lore on a cult. The rules lawyer in question will undoubtedly know that attrition will make the DM give because the DM doesn't want to bring the game to a screeching halt to argue with a troublesome player.
Now I know that theses will be corner cases, but we will see the threads, and we will learn to fear them.
This is what Yoda would probably say about it:
"No, no different. Only different in your mind. You must unlearn what you have learned (about D&D)."
By approaching the new game without ego or bias, I do feel like it's 1990 all over again and I just discovered that awesome black boxed game with the huge red dragon in it.
D&D is not an edition. D&D is not my D&D. D&D is not your D&D. D&D is D&D. -Androlphas
Thursday, 3rd May, 2012, 04:00 AM #28
Grandmaster of Flowers (Lvl 18)
Overall I think this is how WOTC is looking to go, with less game terminology at the table, at least form the player's mouths.
And I certainly support that idea.
Thursday, 3rd May, 2012, 04:24 AM #29
Spellbinder (Lvl 16)
From what I've seen of this new edition, I suspect it will play out like this:
Player: "I intimidate him into giving me the information about the thieves guild."
DM: "Roll CHA."
Some players might say:
Player: "Why can't I use STR?"
And some DMs might say:
DM: "Okay, roll STR."
If the DM asks "How?" then the player will be forced to describe his or her action; otherwise the player doesn't. Because of that I don't see much difference between the new edition and what's come before.
I think that Vincent Baker did a good job of covering this subject a few years ago on his blog. Let's see if I can find those posts:
anyway: Lazy Play vs IIEE with Teeth
anyway: Adequacy, Cause and Effect
anyway: Concrete Examples of Arrows
anyway: Now where WAS I...
anyway: Dice & Cloud: a Symmetry
anyway: A Moment of Judgment
anyway: 3 Resolution Systems
anyway: post a comment
"If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms"
Burning Empires: Boldaq
Keep on the Shadowfell
Thursday, 3rd May, 2012, 05:17 AM #30
Magsman (Lvl 14)
Something I started doing (which I learned from GURPS) was sometimes using skills with different abilities than they are normally used with. For a quick arbitrary example which I'm making up, we'll say that a cleric wants to give a rousing sermon to inspire members of a church. I might call for a religion check based upon charisma -that would mean Religion skill level plus Cha mod.
I have not done so very often when playing D&D, but there have been a few times I've used the idea.