D&D 5E The Next Generation

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YourSwordIsMine

First Post
Hey, old people.

And yes, I'm talking to you.

I've been tooling around on EN World for a long time, now. I've been immersed in gaming culture for far longer than I'd like to admit.

One thing that jumps out at me, from all this talk of the next edition of D&D, is talk about the fiction that should inform it. From talk about the kinds of art that should be included, to the stories that should inspire its mechanics - the kinds of stories the players grew up on should be considered, when looking at a game.

That is an entirely understandable sentiment. After all, you want a game that can do Conan, and Elric, and Frodo, right? Those are the kinds of stories you grew up on. The kinds of things that drew you to gaming in the first place.

So now I'm going to tell you that you need to go step back, and - in essence - go away.

Your stories aren't relevant anymore. I'm sorry that this has happened, but it has. I have met no one in my age group that has heard of the Dying Earth series, and yet D&D's default casting system is based upon Vance's work. The only reason I'm aware of the guy is because I spend far too much of my time on gaming forums, studying the history of gaming and what-not. I've never read his works, and, honestly, I don't care to.

The same thing can be said for Conan, for Frodo, for the Gray Mouser, for... whatever else traditional sources you can name for D&D. I know there's all kinds of sources, all kinds of books and what-not that no doubt innumerable people that frequent these forums can toss at me.

It doesn't matter anymore.

The old guard needs to start giving way to the new, at some point. Perhaps now is that point. I don't want mechanics steeped in the old, anymore. I want a game that can give me things like what I've seen in the Redwall series, in Last Airbender, in anime like Cowboy Bebop and Samurai Champloo. We've got to be able to follow the style of things like Harry Potter, because that is today's fiction, today's stories, the things my generation is familiar with.

Maybe this post is coming off as harsh, and I'm sorry for that. But I've been thinking about this, and it just seems reasonable to me that gaming needs to understand that the environment in which it was born is changing, and that it needs to change with it to stay relevant. Because if game designers keep talking about Elric and Frodo and Conan... you're going to lose people, and the next generation of would-be gamers aren't going to care. Talking about the old stories and the old lore demonstrates an unwillingness to recognize cultural change, and if you aren't willing to accommodate new takes on fantasy, then you risk becoming irrelevant.

If the next edition of D&D can't do Last Airbender or Harry Potter, then what incentive does the next generation of gamers have to pick it up?

wait... what?

After 30+ years D&D is its own genre... IT is neither Conan, or Tolkien or Moorcock... Nor should it be Harry Potter or Last Airbender...

I know there is more I want to say... but I think I am still a little stunned by your post here...
 

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Incenjucar

Legend
The game is Dungeons & Dragons. It is not, for example, "Harry Potter: The Roleplaying Game," or "Avatar: The Last RPG." Imagination and innovation are fine and good, but the title of the game alone carries with it a certain level of expectation. When someone says "hey, let's play Dungeons & Dragons," you do not expect to be part of a motorcycle-riding vampire gang, for example. But if someone were to say "hey, let's play The Lost Boys RPG," well...

Dungeons & Dragons is a great RPG. But it is not the ONLY one. More to the point, it must not attempt to be the only one. If 5E tries to be all games to all gamers, it will lose more than just the "old guard" of players...it will lose its own identity.

Wizards of the Coast does not want us "old people" to go anywhere. They need us, if for no other reason than to help them remember.

Problem: D&D has never been able to just follow that expectation, and never will be if it is to survive as the premier fantasy RPG. If WotC is willing to let D&D become a peer of Mouse Guard, sure, this can work, but their stakeholders would not appreciate that. Moreover, D&D has always been about being more than just D&D. It has constantly stretched out, absorbing new ideas and mingling with them to present things like Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Planescape, Lankhmar, Barrier Peaks, Eberron, Gamma World, and so on. D&D is as defined by experimenting outside of dungeons as with dungeons. To narrow it to its most core assumptions is to deny its history.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Problem: D&D has never been able to just follow that expectation, and never will be if it is to survive as the premier fantasy RPG.
Citation needed.
It has constantly stretched out, absorbing new ideas and mingling with them to present things like Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Planescape, Lankhmar, Barrier Peaks, Eberron, Gamma World, and so on. D&D is as defined by experimenting outside of dungeons as with dungeons. To narrow it to its most core assumptions is to deny its history.
I think we are comparing apples to lettuce here. My post was in response to the OP essentially telling me to sit down, shut up, and let D&D evolve into some weird Harry Potter/Avatar clone. It was not a mandate against growth or innovation.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Hey, old people.

And yes, I'm talking to you.
You know what they say, "you're only as old as you feel."

So you must be talking to me...

One thing that jumps out at me, from all this talk of the next edition of D&D, is talk about the fiction that should inform it. From talk about the kinds of art that should be included, to the stories that should inspire its mechanics - the kinds of stories the players grew up on should be considered, when looking at a game.
Part of the debate is whether fiction should still inform it, at all, or if it start being purely self-referent going forward.

Should D&D look back to it's original sources of inspiration, look to current sources and perhaps even the future, or just dive into its own navel and become more and more D&D until it's nothing at all?


The old guard needs to start giving way to the new, at some point. Perhaps now is that point. I don't want mechanics steeped in the old, anymore. I want a game that can give me things like what I've seen in the Redwall series, in Last Airbender, in anime like Cowboy Bebop and Samurai Champloo. We've got to be able to follow the style of things like Harry Potter, because that is today's fiction, today's stories, the things my generation is familiar with.

Maybe this post is coming off as harsh, and I'm sorry for that.
You're also a little late. WotC tried modernizing and broadening D&D with 4e. That failure has convinced them that /you/ don't matter.

You know my standard mantra about not putting up with edition wars? Yep, still true. No more of this, please. -- PCat
 
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Incenjucar

Legend
WotC tried modernizing and broadening D&D with 4e.

How in blazes did 4E broaden anything? Which edition added kobolds in fatigues, giant bug people with mind powers, and UFOs?

That failure has convinced them that /you/ don't matter.

Can we stop having these adversarial attitudes here? Please?

WotC needs both the older AND the younger audience.
 

pemerton

Legend
That consensus would not survive careful analysis were it spelled out in each case.

<snip>

It's the "consensus" of what D&D is that is fragile.
I think the (not-infrequently) perceived alignment of 3E with AD&D is the most obvious example of this.

4E shares another dubious distinction with BECMI: Those are the only two editions where a segment of the hobby got to play their active version of "D&D" while simultaneously looking down their noses at another version. I'm sure it's a rare pleasure, after the years of getting snubbed by RQ elitists and the like.
This is amusing, and I hadn't thought of it like this before.

I've certainly been a non-D&D elitist in my time (mostly looking down my nose at 2nd ed AD&D - which I also played from time to time, but never GMed). Of course, I'm easily able to reconcile my elitism with my preference for 4e in my own mind, at least! And as you know, remain a little puzzled exactly why 3E players prefer 3E to games like HARP, which are more simulationist, at least arguably have more robust skill systems, and have a Fate Point mechanic in lieu of hit points to ensure plot protection.

Whatever exactly the itch that 3E scratches, I don't have it. (Whereas I can certainly feel the charm of pre-2nd ed classic D&D, even though I have little desire to play it these days.)

WotC tried modernizing and broadening D&D with 4e. That failure has convinced them that /you/ don't matter.
Ouch!
 

Citation needed. I think we are comparing apples to lettuce here. My post was in response to the OP essentially telling me to sit down, shut up, and let D&D evolve into some weird Harry Potter/Avatar clone. It was not a mandate against growth or innovation.
Too late. Its all ready evolved in a crazy insane way. In fact I wonder if Gygax was even aware that his game inspired entire cartoon series that remains relatively well known to this day. In fact I'm not entirely sure why Wizards of the Coast just doesn't go for it and try and retrofit Record of the Lodoss War back into a D&D setting. Sure there will be whinning and complaining about it being anime but its no less Dungeons and Dragons than any game Gygax played.
 
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CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Too late. Its all ready evolved in a crazy insane way. More people are probably familiar with D&D through anime than they are through the actual game.
So it is of little surprise, then, that we are having this conversation in a discussion forum for a new edition of the game. ;)
 


Greg K

Legend
T In fact I wonder if Gygax was even aware that his game inspired entire cartoon series that remains relatively well known to this day.

In case you are serious in asking, yes, he did. He went to Hollywood and became the co-producer of the cartoon.

"After TSR was split into TSR, Inc., and TSR Entertainment, Inc., in 1983, Gygax became the President and the Chairman of the Board of Directors of TSR, Inc.,[39] and the President of TSR Entertainment, Inc.[14] As part of TSR Entertainment, Inc., which was later known as Dungeons & Dragons Entertainment Corp., Gygax went to Hollywood, where he became co-producer of the licensed Dungeons & Dragons cartoon series for CBS.[40] The series led its time slot for two years.[2]"

Gary Gygax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

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