When did the Fighter become "defender"?

Wiseblood · May 7, 2012

Who goes adventuring and needs a babysitter? Defend yourself. People get miffed that the cleric was relegated to healbot or ambulatory band-aid. Will they chafe at having to defend as the fighter? I certainly do. The fighter should fight not "protect whistle britches" from the unwashed hordes. People that get defended in fiction are frequently the "defenseless". While not useless they are typified by a complete lack of combat ability and or adventuring background. (Think Natalia in Goldeneye.)

I am the first to admit that teamwork is important. I think the "tank" meme is a legitimate approach. Heavy armor is to protect the wearer from harm. The wearer of said armor often will interpose himself between danger and his charge, if he has a charge. I think "defender" needs to be a theme or background not the foundation of a class.

The expectation of "defending" as the role of fighters is as insulting as the fighter being the "pack mule".

If I defend, it is by the fighting of foes. What do I defend? My positoin. I seek to become invincible. Great fighters in our history often defended things villages, virtues, and well I can't think of another "V' word. They did it by kicking butt. The Spartans defended they sold their lives for a dear price. Huge piles of dead enemies.

Tactics, strategy, strengths and weaknesses all come into play. The fighter can be so much more than a defender that it makes me ill to think they might get shafted with that crap again. Imagine if wizards could only be "artillery"".

I do not mind the fighter being "the front line" but if some dope is dumb enough to slip by into the midst of my comrades they should definitely be able to handle it. I trust them to watch my back after all.

The Human Target · May 7, 2012

As soon as someone realized the most tactically sound action a fighter could take is to keep the spellcasters alive.

So I'd say 1974.

RangerWickett · May 7, 2012

I admit, I would like it if characters were able to easily do stuff that matched the different roles. I mean, maybe you focus on one skill set or the other, but any person ought to be able to say, "Hm, I want to make sure no one can run past me," and have a chance.

KidSnide · May 7, 2012

The fighter has been able to be a defender since the beginning of the game. The fighter was shoehorned into exclusively being a defender for about 2-3 years near the beginning of 4e (until the Slayer build was published in Essentials). And I think it is also worth noting that even the PH1 fighter could get quite striker-like with the right set of powers and a sufficiently large weapon.

That all having been said, I think it's safe to say that fighters will have access to defender-style abilities in D&DN, but that won't be the only way to play a fighter.

-KS

Kzach · May 7, 2012

Wiseblood said:
Who goes adventuring and needs a babysitter? Defend yourself.

Fine! Heal yourself then! And don't go asking Gerald to teleport you across dimensions any time soon!

Hurrumph!

Leatherhead · May 7, 2012

Kzach said:
Fine! Heal yourself then! And don't go asking Gerald to teleport you across dimensions any time soon!

Hurrumph!

You jest, but I think the artificial segregation of combat roles into healer/tank/damage is, in fact, an overgrown bug of the system. One which was overlooked for the longest time because it promoted team play in a game where you want everyone involved. And then it just kind of exploded because that's what people did.

I, for one, would much rather have everyone be an independent unit capable of doing what they need to do in order to win a combat. It would be much easier to balance monsters and encounters across group variations if each class was such.

Griego · May 7, 2012

Yes, I would like the Fighter to be more about crushing skulls than doing the Rope-a-Dope in a tin can.

Majoru Oakheart · May 7, 2012

Leatherhead said:
I, for one, would much rather have everyone be an independent unit capable of doing what they need to do in order to win a combat. It would be much easier to balance monsters and encounters across group variations if each class was such.

If everyone can win by themselves then why do you need allies? Also, in order to win fights you need a combination of healing, damage, defense, and control(keeping all the enemies from attacking you at once, doing damage to a lot of enemies simultaneously if you run into a large group of weak enemies, etc).

I can't really imagine a character that made sense in the world who was capable of doing ALL of those things by themselves. Ok, maybe a cleric. But other classes don't fit thematically with at least one of those things.

Instead, traditionally, each class has had the one thing they do well:
-Thieves (Skills, Exploration, [burst damage])
-Fighter (Tough Guy, Damage)
-Cleric (Healing, Defense)
-Wizard (Control, Area of Effect)

D&D parties only work together because they can't do everything. I've seen what happens when you give one character the ability to do everything....they become a jerk to the rest of the party. As they almost always realize they don't need them.

Leatherhead · May 7, 2012

Majoru Oakheart said:
If everyone can win by themselves then why do you need allies?

Because the bad guys can win by themselves too.

And more importantly, you do not need healing in the middle of a fight. That is a pure metagame construct that exists only to support the artificial divide. If you tweak the numbers, you can abolish combat healing while leaving ritual healing to get people back in fighting shape.

mkill · May 7, 2012

Leatherhead said:
And more importantly, you do not need healing in the middle of a fight. That is a pure metagame construct that exists only to support the artificial divide. If you tweak the numbers, you can abolish combat healing while leaving ritual healing to get people back in fighting shape.

Cleric: "Leave me alone. In-combat healing is a purely metagame construct."
Rogue: "STFU and get Durgosh back up! We're being swarmed here!"
Durgosh: "MEDIC!!!" *gah grr bleed cough*

As for the OP's question, I think the defender role was invented in Ancient Greece with the phalanx formation, but it could be older.