When did the Fighter become "defender"?

The last AD&D campaign I GMed was for two PC thieves, a duergar fighter/thief and a svirfneblin illusionist/thief. It was a fun campaign, and played very differently from the earlier game with the same two players, which involved a more traditional PCs + henchmen party.

And in 4e for a while I was running to an archery ranger, a scout (two weapon dex based ranger), a vampire, and a thief. Four dex based strikers, all trained in stealth and perception. Made for a fun arc and played very differently from other parties.

I want the Fighter to be both the Striker and the Defender. The defender/striker split seems to a port from MMOs, which is messed up imo because I believe it was invented there to (a) make combat more interesting against AI controlled opponents, and (b) to provide additional combat-based class differentiation (because exploratory and social gameplay in MMOs is too weak to support a class niche). In other words, it's compensating for the computer RPG medium's weaknesses compared to the tabletop RPG medium. I don't know why we would bring it back to tabletop D&D unless the goal were to actually to emulate MMOs.

The fighter does dish out beatings - and if his mark is being triggered regularly he can outdamage most strikers quite happily. (A rogue that plays provoke tactics is an excellent partner for this).

As a rule of thumb "Martial" means "with extra damage on the powers", "Arcane" means "With extra monster annoyance/control on the powers", "Divine" means "With extra buff/leadership on the powers", and "Primal" means "With extra toughness." So although the martial leader won't catch up with the ranger for damage (nothing matches a well built ranger for single target damage), a martial defender that picks the high damage options is in the same league as a striker from any other power source. Or even many rogues (who have more control than warlocks, but I digress).

On the other hand the martial defender might be close to the primal striker (barbarian) for damage - but the primal striker is in the same league as the martial defender for toughness. And is really maneuverable.

As an aside, I truly do believe that the overwhelming majority of issues that people have with 4e are due to the presentation of elements in 4e. If the writers had either backed off a bit in how they present the classes, or had included a few pages with each class on how easy it is to blur the lines between roles, it would have gone MILES towards defusing these misunderstandings.

Agreed absolutely. The biggest problem with the PHB is presentation.
 

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Eldritch_Lord

Adventurer
As an aside, I truly do believe that the overwhelming majority of issues that people have with 4e are due to the presentation of elements in 4e. If the writers had either backed off a bit in how they present the classes, or had included a few pages with each class on how easy it is to blur the lines between roles, it would have gone MILES towards defusing these misunderstandings.

While it's the case for many elements of 4e that a better presentation could clear up lots of problems, I think the problems people have with roles stems from a different issue, namely the fact that classes were defined by combat role rather than thematic niche. (Caveat: all of the following is observational data gathered from talking with players IRL and browsing forum threads and are being presented in that fashion; they do not necessarily represent the opinions of this poster.) To take a look at the martial classes for a moment, fighters in previous editions are the dudes in heavy armor who do fancy stuff with different weapons, paladins are the dudes on horseback who smite evil things, rangers are nature-y TWF/archer dudes with animal companions, barbarians are tough dudes that flip out and kill things and are really hard to kill themselves, and rogues are sneaky dudes who are fragile in stand-up combat but are great in ambush situations. So far, so good.

However, in previous editions, you could be a heavily-armored TWFer, a heavily-armored two-hander, a heavily-armored S&B guy, or whatever else, and your combat role would change based on that. In 3e, for instance, a 2HF fighter with Power Attack and Shock Trooper was more striker-y, a S&B fighter with Stand Still and Combat Reflexes was more defender-y, a TWFer with combat style feats and Cleave was more controller-y, and a fighter with Leadership and bunches of teamwork benefits was more leader-y. The common denominator there was the heavy armor, good health, and reliable damage, compared to a barbarian's lower armor and spiky damage or a ranger's lower health and situational damage or the like, allowing you to make your "strikers" more or less mobile, more or less resilient, etc. You could fill different roles better or worse, of course (e.g. the AD&D fighter with his followers could do leader-y a hell of a lot better than the 3e fighter, while losing out on controller-y-ness a bit thanks to HP bloat), but you could do it.

In 4e, they took everything martial characters could do and split them by combat role first, then schtick second--instead of deciding to be a weapon master or a sneaky guy or an archer and then choosing what combat niche to fill, you choose a role and then pick your schtick based on that. Essentially, 4e gave people the choice of role first, fighting style second (choose Defender over Striker -> choose between Str-based Great Weapon fighter or Dex-based Guardian fighter or TWF Tempest fighter; choose Striker over Defender -> choose between Str-based Brawny rogue or Dex-based Slayer fighter or TWF Two-Weapon ranger) when what a lot of people wanted to see was the reverse (choose TWF over Str/Dex single weapon -> choose between very Striker-y Two-Weapon ranger or Striker/Defender Tempest fighter; choose Str-based single weapon -> choose between very Striker-y Brawny rogue or very Defender-y Great Weapon fighter). If you wanted to have Combat Challenge and wield two weapons, or Hunter's Quarry and have a shield, you were out of luck; while you can easily make a striker-y Fighter by picking the right powers and such, the fact that you have to start with a Defender chassis and build it towards Striker stuff instead of having a blank slate and building up to the role of your choice rubs some people the wrong way because it sort of feels like you're working against the system rather than with it.

Because certain fighting styles were closely associated with certain roles (particularly with just PHB1) instead of being able to mix-and-match fighting styles with roles, people felt constrained by the dictation of roles, even though most of the roles are what they'd be doing anyway and the actual problem was e.g. the lack of a heavily-armored TWFer option and not the fact that only rangers can TWF, per se. If the PHB1 had had Ranger-scale TWF and archery options for Defenders and Fighter-scale two-handed and S&B options for Strikers right out of the gate, rather than trying to make a defender-y Striker because you wanted to be a TWF-based Defender or a striker-y Defender because you wanted to be a S&B Striker, I doubt roles would ever have been a problem, but instead a complaint along the lines of "I'd rather make my TWFers the mobile, sticky ones and the two-handers the straightforward, burst-damage ones" gets boiled down to a vague "Why do fighters have to be bodyguards!?!?"

Same thing with clerics being single-target damage dealers and buffers while wizards were multi-target damage dealers and debuffers with no option for the reverse: I doubt anyone disliked being labeled a Leader or Controller and getting the perks associated with those roles, but rather they wanted to choose between single target and AoE and between buffing and debuffing, not between single-target + buffing and AoE + debuffing, and so forth. That combinatorial aspect is why I'm hoping to see roles be defined by themes in 5e while schticks are defined by class, rather than having the two tied closely together.
 

Herschel

Adventurer
As an aside, I truly do believe that the overwhelming majority of issues that people have with 4e are due to the presentation of elements in 4e. If the writers had either backed off a bit in how they present the classes, or had included a few pages with each class on how easy it is to blur the lines between roles, it would have gone MILES towards defusing these misunderstandings.

Definitely. Using the PHB 1 as an example, it was extremely interesting to read but it wasn't particularly fun to read.
 

Herschel

Adventurer
While it's the case for many elements of 4e that a better presentation could clear up lots of problems, I think the problems people have with roles stems from a different issue, namely the fact that classes were defined by combat role rather than thematic niche. ...
However, in previous editions, you could be a ....... The common denominator there was the heavy armor, good health, and reliable damage, compared to a barbarian's lower armor and spiky damage or a ranger's lower health and situational damage or the like, allowing you to make your "strikers" more or less mobile, more or less resilient, etc. You could fill different roles better or worse, of course (e.g. the AD&D fighter with his followers could do leader-y a hell of a lot better than the 3e fighter, while losing out on controller-y-ness a bit thanks to HP bloat), but you could do it.

In 4e, they took everything martial characters could do and split them by combat role first, then schtick second--instead of deciding to be a weapon master or a sneaky guy or an archer and then choosing what combat niche to fill, you choose a role and then pick your schtick based on that.

Which is really, absolutely NO different unless you're edition warring. It's also NOT the way many (most?) people design characters.

Starting with a schtick, there's really no difference. I have a heavy-armored, two-weapon fighting dwarf who does damage that's "ported" over from a previous character. In this case, he's a Ranger because it worked better for the concept.

I also have a Bow-using battlefield commander character who generally stays back and surveys the battle field, lending a hand wherever it's most needed and can step in to melee as well. In this case, he's a Warlord.

I have a light-armored, sword-wielding character who also casts magical wards and spells and is more a mobile rescue ranger than a "tank". In this case he's a Swordmage.

I can still do these concepts with the Fighter class, but they work better for me using a different class. The pont is though that I can do the schticks you talked about easily enough because 4E gave me the tools to do them, just like earlier editions.

Essentially, 4e gave people the choice of role first, fighting style second (choose Defender over Striker -> choose between Str-based Great Weapon fighter or Dex-based Guardian fighter or TWF Tempest fighter; choose Striker over Defender -> choose between Str-based Brawny rogue or Dex-based Slayer fighter or TWF Two-Weapon ranger) when what a lot of people wanted to see was the reverse (choose TWF over Str/Dex single weapon -> choose between very Striker-y Two-Weapon ranger or Striker/Defender Tempest fighter; choose Str-based single weapon -> choose between very Striker-y Brawny rogue or very Defender-y Great Weapon fighter).

Again, this is a gross misrepresentation of the issue.

If you wanted to have Combat Challenge and wield two weapons, or Hunter's Quarry and have a shield, you were out of luck;

Again, flat out WRONG. You can have both of those things very easily, it's just that op-cheese thinking tells you the double attacks are "better" for a Ranger. You can create a perfectly viable weapon/board Ranger, he's just not spamming Twin Strike and Twin Strike + powers.

while you can easily make a striker-y Fighter by picking the right powers and such, the fact that you have to start with a Defender chassis and build it towards Striker stuff instead of having a blank slate and building up to the role of your choice rubs some people the wrong way because it sort of feels like you're working against the system rather than with it.

Again, you start with the defender chassis because you want to play a defender. Regardless of system, the best way to play the character you want is to decide your schtick and build from there. "Being a Fighter" is NOT a schtick, it's just one character element of whichever schtick you want.

Because certain fighting styles were closely associated with certain roles (particularly with just PHB1) instead of being able to mix-and-match fighting styles with roles, people felt constrained by the dictation of roles, even though most of the roles are what they'd be doing anyway and the actual problem was e.g. the lack of a heavily-armored TWFer option and not the fact that only rangers can TWF, per se. If the PHB1 had had Ranger-scale TWF and archery options for Defenders and Fighter-scale two-handed and S&B options for Strikers right out of the gate, rather than trying to make a defender-y Striker because you wanted to be a TWF-based Defender or a striker-y Defender because you wanted to be a S&B Striker, I doubt roles would ever have been a problem, but instead a complaint along the lines of "I'd rather make my TWFers the mobile, sticky ones and the two-handers the straightforward, burst-damage ones" gets boiled down to a vague "Why do fighters have to be bodyguards!?!?"

Then those people are illogically impatient at best, otherwise just plain unrealistic. NO previous edition had everything up-front. 3.x had numerous years of splatbooks and additions. 4E was no different. Nor will 5E/DDN be. TBH, the people that complain about not having everything "up-front" aren't worth marketing to because they will NEVER be happy.

Same thing with clerics being single-target damage dealers and buffers while wizards were multi-target damage dealers and debuffers with no option for the reverse: I doubt anyone disliked being labeled a Leader or Controller and getting the perks associated with those roles, but rather they wanted to choose between single target and AoE and between buffing and debuffing, not between single-target + buffing and AoE + debuffing, and so forth. That combinatorial aspect is why I'm hoping to see roles be defined by themes in 5e while schticks are defined by class, rather than having the two tied closely together.

Again, what's the difference? Class and Role really are moot because the only thing schtick should be based on is SCHTICK. Class and Role are both just elemental means to an end. It's meaningless semantics.

And you can choose to do different things, at least w/ 4E standard. Essentials is generally much more limiting and is preferred by many "old schoolers" and maybe closer to what you say, but it's also MUCH more restrictive.
 

renau1g

First Post
Again, flat out WRONG. You can have both of those things very easily, it's just that op-cheese thinking tells you the double attacks are "better" for a Ranger. You can create a perfectly viable weapon/board Ranger, he's just not spamming Twin Strike and Twin Strike + powers.

Or use a spiked shield on the off-hand, I think you can attack with that right?
 


Estlor

Explorer
I want the Fighter to be both the Striker and the Defender. The defender/striker split seems to a port from MMOs, which is messed up imo because I believe it was invented there to (a) make combat more interesting against AI controlled opponents, and (b) to provide additional combat-based class differentiation (because exploratory and social gameplay in MMOs is too weak to support a class niche). In other words, it's compensating for the computer RPG medium's weaknesses compared to the tabletop RPG medium. I don't know why we would bring it back to tabletop D&D unless the goal were to actually to emulate MMOs.

You're in luck! The devs gave the Fighter Brash Strike, Rain of Blows, Rain of Steel, Thicket of Blades, Cometfall Charge...

I'm assuming, of course, you mean "Striker" as "Guy who hits like a truck," not "Striker" as the 4e role - a light armored, highly mobile class with an extra damage mechanic baked in.

One thing the PHB1 did a poor job of conveying was that every class also had an inherent secondary role that they did a really good job at even though not explicitly being that role. The Fighter's secondary role is Striker. They are the hardest-hitting Defender class*.

* A Berserker that's gone into a fury doesn't count as they're no longer a Defender.
 

underfoot007ct

First Post
Since the 4E developers decided to look at how party interactions worked in MMORPGS like World of Warcraft and Everquest. I know a lot of people get really upset when someone compares 4E to MMORPGS but I don't think it's a poor comparison nor is it an insult. The nice thing about 4E is that every character is useful is just about every situation. The bad thing is that I hate looking at characters and thinking of them as tanks, healz and DPS.

Since MMORPGs decided that party interactions were based on early D&D, then it comes full circle. Being a cleric means you were the healer/leader, the tank being the defender, even if no one used those terms, those roles still existed.
 

rjdafoe

Explorer
Please read the comments immediately above yours in this thread. They make it quite clear that this is a misunderstanding of the 4E fighter, based on noticing that the fighter is called a "defender", and then proceeding to make assumptions about what that means, ignoring how the class is actually designed and how it plays.

Is this true of the original PHB fclasses or was this a broadening of the classes afterwards? I used othe books. The 4e PHB classes were very constrained.
 

ForeverSlayer

Banned
Banned
Which is really, absolutely NO different unless you're edition warring. It's also NOT the way many (most?) people design characters.

First off, claiming people are edition warring is not a form of disagreement.

Who are these many, most people you speak of? I just love it when people that post on here post with the assumed knowledge that they game or talk to the majority of gamers.
 

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