When did the Fighter become "defender"?

ForeverSlayer

Banned
Banned
Right, I was going to say along these lines. I could make a rogue that only hides in the shadows and never fights because they're scared of getting hurt. I shouldn't be blaming the system for my choice.

And what you describe isn't something that 4e is responsible for, I'm guessing that player would play the same way in 1-3e also.

Edit: I'm well aware that the posters here aren't the entire gaming population, I'm sure that 50% is even way too high, probably more like 10%. The sample size you note is 1 and the sample size I noted is much larger.

That all comes from the defender mechanic. If the fighter went off and just attacked things like a 3rd edition fighter and didn't use it's "defender" mechanic then the fighter would be looked down upon because it didn't use it's main ability.

I was just saying that I know of someone who just stood there and acted like a bodyguard.

Back in 3rd edition I had a Abjuration Wizard (Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil) who was was my Fighter's bodyguard so it goes to show you that any class can act the "bodyguard" role.

I just don't want that mechanic built into the class, I can do that on my own if I want to.
 

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That all comes from the defender mechanic. If the fighter went off and just attacked things like a 3rd edition fighter and didn't use it's "defender" mechanic then the fighter would be looked down upon because it didn't use it's main ability.
The 4E fighter marks by attacking. If he's not attacking he's not "doing his job."

I was just saying that I know of someone who just stood there and acted like a bodyguard.
With the implication that it's an example of the type that the other poster was looking for, one that is forced into playing that way due to the "strictures" of the 4E roles. If the example has nothing to do with 4E mechanics, then it's irrelevant to the conversation, due to the context of the conversation. That's why I asked for clarification as to why the fighter was behaving in such a manner.

I just don't want that mechanic built into the class, I can do that on my own if I want to.
You don't want that mechanic built into the class? Good news: it isn't!
 

Dausuul

Legend
That all comes from the defender mechanic. If the fighter went off and just attacked things like a 3rd edition fighter...

What, like this?

No, we never had fighters playing bodyguard in earlier editions. Nosirreebob.

...and didn't use it's "defender" mechanic then the fighter would be looked down upon because it didn't use it's main ability.

What "defender" mechanic? Fighters have Combat Challenge, marking, et cetera. You don't have to sit by the wizard to use those abilities, and in fact sitting by the wizard offers fewer chances to do so. Get into melee and you can lock down a whole clump of enemies, who can't go anywhere without your say-so.

I have no doubt that some fighters choose to play caster-bodyguard. That's not a 4E-specific thing, though. It's been the case in every edition. I have found that 4E requires far less caster-babysitting than previous editions, partly because fighters have battlefield control that lets them lock down enemies anywhere on the field, and partly because casters are much more durable.
 


renau1g

First Post
That all comes from the defender mechanic. If the fighter went off and just attacked things like a 3rd edition fighter and didn't use it's "defender" mechanic then the fighter would be looked down upon because it didn't use it's main ability.

A fighter marks when it attacks, therefore you can just go off and attack things like you did in 3e. It uses its defender mechanic even if Fighter decides to run way ahead of the party attacking whatever he wants to.

"Every time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark that target." <- Compendium
 
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MGibster

Legend
Since the 4E developers decided to look at how party interactions worked in MMORPGS like World of Warcraft and Everquest. I know a lot of people get really upset when someone compares 4E to MMORPGS but I don't think it's a poor comparison nor is it an insult. The nice thing about 4E is that every character is useful is just about every situation. The bad thing is that I hate looking at characters and thinking of them as tanks, healz and DPS.
 

Dausuul

Legend
You answered your own question.
My point is, these mechanics do not obligate or encourage the fighter to sit back with the wizard. They work best if you get in the enemy's face. They are "defender" mechanics in that they are associated with the "defender" role, but they do not push defensive play.
 

nogray

Adventurer
That all comes from the defender mechanic. If the fighter went off and just attacked things like a 3rd edition fighter and didn't use it's "defender" mechanic then the fighter would be looked down upon because it didn't use it's main ability.

I was just saying that I know of someone who just stood there and acted like a bodyguard.

There isn't any 4e defender mechanic that rewards standing near your friends and not attacking or at least engaging the enemy. If a 4e fighter goes off and attacks things like a 3.Xe fighter, they are setting themselves up to actually use their defender mechanic. I'm not sure what is meant by "didn't use it's [sic] main ability." That can, as I understand it, refer to one of two things.

It might mean that the fighter didn't apply the mark when he attacked, which can have some validity if the fighter is, for example, low on hit points or surges and the rest of the party is healthier, but would otherwise be a tactical error. The other thing it could refer to would be not taking the provoked combat-challenge-based attack, which would only be a valid tactic if the fighter had two things marked and ignored the (for example) minion's violation in favor of holding it for the upcoming brute's turn.

If the fighter does not apply the mark (without extenuating circumstances) or does not use the combat challenge attack that an enemy provokes (absent, again, extenuating circumstances), then yes, they would likely be looked down on, but only in the same way that a 3.Xe fighter would be looked down on for not taking a provoked AoO or making only two of his three possible attacks on a full attack.

The 4e fighter may want to strategize targets for attacks slightly differently than the 3.Xe fighter, but in both cases, the character should be attacking the enemy each and every round. Standing near your friend and waiting for the enemy to come to you and attack like a bodyguard is not being a defender. There is no "bodyguard" role in 4e. That they (the person in your example) chose a fighter is irrelevant (and, most likely, really sub-par for that job -- a striker with the guardian theme would probably be so much better).

Back in 3rd edition I had a Abjuration Wizard (Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil) who was was my Fighter's bodyguard so it goes to show you that any class can act the "bodyguard" role.

I just don't want that mechanic built into the class, I can do that on my own if I want to.

There is no "bodyguard" role in 4e.

The best 4e bodyguards that I've seen are, as mentioned, strikers (with a good constitution and a solid basic attack, like an infernal hexblade) with the "Guardian" theme from Dragon 399. I could see a similar idea (though not a Guardian theme) for a staff of defense arcanist wizard, as they at least are likely to have a good constitution for surges/hit points and a decent int-based AC. The particulars of the build don't leap to mind, however; it's counter to how I generally play wizards.
 

CasvalRemDeikun

Adventurer
I am starting to think a lot of the hate directed toward 4E stems from people seeing terms like Defender/Striker/Leader/Controller, not reading beyond that point, and then extrapolating what the game is like based totally on those terms and preconceived notions of what those terms entail rather than what they actually entail.

It would be pretty amazing to see what the outcome of the system would have been like if haters actually understood what they hated, rather than hate for hate's sake.
 

I am starting to think a lot of the hate directed toward 4E stems from people seeing terms like Defender/Striker/Leader/Controller, not reading beyond that point, and then extrapolating what the game is like based totally on those terms and preconceived notions of what those terms entail rather than what they actually entail.

It would be pretty amazing to see what the outcome of the system would have been like if haters actually understood what they hated, rather than hate for hate's sake.

I appreciate the desire yo have others share your preferences, but I think if you stepped back and looked at what people are saying it is generally the whole of 4E doesn't appeal to them and this is usually based on playing the game and reading the books (they may have reached different concusions a out certain things but not unreasonable ones ImO). The idea that people would like it if they didn't just make wild assumptins about it due to the role names also seems a bit unfounded here.

I read the books, a played several times. I just don't like it. How many times do I need to keep playing it for people on the other side to accept it isn't for me ( i mean I certainly gave it more tries than other games I disliked). You may not mind the use of roles in 4E, but others feel it is one of the reasons behind their dislike (and I think like any other aspect of the game both sides can make valid points about how much freedom or limitation they place on play). Personally I am not a fan of the way roles are so focused around combat and I don't really agree with the role selection (i never really saw rogues as strikers for example). But that is hardly the only thing about 4e that bugs me.

On this subject of words. I dont know what to say except it isn't our fault if the 4e designers failed to communicate clearly. On the one hand we are told you have to look past the words in 4e and use your imagination, on the other we are told that words are the most important aspect of the game and convey all kinds of flavor information. All I know is I never had these issues in earlier editions of the game.

Trust me, this isn't hate on my part. 4e does what it does, and lots of people like it. I dont hold it against them for trying to make a more focused version of D&D. It just doesn't appeal to me. If the next edition appeals to me I will buy it, if it doesn't I won't. There seems to be this implication behind the 4e hater label that if you don't accept each new edition of D&D and play it, you are somehow closed minded or attempting to be mean. Sorry to rant a bit here, but I just think that is incorrect. I pretty much only play games that interest me. If that happens to be the current edition of D&D, great. If not, that is fine too. If you love 4E, by all means you should play it and want 5e to reflect your preferences. But some peope jus are not satisfied with it....and I don't think you can talk somene into liking it, anymore than you can talk someone into liking a food that they dislike the taste of.
 

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