Economy and D&D

Cleon

Legend
Not really. If you think of the average cow producing ~ 5 gallons/day. That comes out to around 5 lbs of butter and 3 lbs of cheese with a gallon of milk to spare. A half dozen hens can lay eggs for the day, and all of these goods could be traded for other needs. Combine this with the ability to raise on a small plot around your home and the average villager is doing quite well supporting themselves... But will still need money for basic items throughout the year. As an average it works pretty solidly figuring replacement costs for various animals over their life cycle (if breeding fails).

For a laborer in the city a 1 SP/day job could cause some issues just due to the costs... But then a laborer could also be seen assisting the baker, the butcher, the cheesemonger, etc. when the day is slow.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

The point I was making was the upkeep prices are supposedly for player characters. As such, they're adventurers who (going by most 3E campaigns I've seen) spend a significant portion of their time traipsing around the countryside, going down holes in the ground, killing monsters et cetera.

If they're doing that, they can't be spending that much time farming - tilling crops can take a lot of work.

For that matter, if a labourer is doing a day's work to earn his silver piece, where are they getting the time to grow their own food / sew their clothes et cetera as well. Of course it's easier to explain if a labourer is a peasant farmer - they're growing a crop and giving a portion to their employer/master and (hopefully) have enough left over to eat - but if the labourer is, say, doing digging canals or loading wagons for a living they are unlikely to grow food to supplement their pay. They can hardly carry a small allotment around with them.

Either some of the "subsistence level" workers are given a significant chunk of spare time to look after their needs, or their food is an additional expense that their employer has to meet that doesn't appear to be covered in the current expenses tables.

Hmm, I suppose they could receive state aid, getting a "bread and oil" dole like ancient Roman commoners, or welfare payments like some Walmart workers...
 

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Loonook

First Post
Most peasants living in subsistence did have a croft to grow their meager food. Also, depending on location, a meal could be provided to the laborer alongside their work just to prevent the need for an extended period of leave to find lunch.

Of course he may do any number of additional things to trade for services. Skill barter is pretty common among the poor even today... Why wouldn't it be in a medieval analog?


Slainte,

-Loonook.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
Hmm, interesting prognostications - but with a few questions in the historical, economical and political spheres, I think. First off, the assumption:
Not really. If you think of the average cow producing ~ 5 gallons/day. That comes out to around 5 lbs of butter and 3 lbs of cheese with a gallon of milk to spare. A half dozen hens can lay eggs for the day, and all of these goods could be traded for other needs. Combine this with the ability to raise on a small plot around your home and the average villager is doing quite well supporting themselves... But will still need money for basic items throughout the year. As an average it works pretty solidly figuring replacement costs for various animals over their life cycle (if breeding fails).
This seems to relate to modern-style cattle with modern stock management methods. I guess a magical society might have developed analogues, but if you want a (pseudo-)medieval milieu, with largely rural population (85-95%, typically), then it's way over the top. Medieval cattle were smaller, less genetically developed for specific purposes (like milk yield) and nowhere near as intensively managed. Milk was typically yielded only between around Easter and Michaelmas, the cow having calved in the due season of the year. A while back I estimated ~96 gallons of (full) milk per year as a reasonable estimate - all coming in the spring and summer months (see Walter of Henley here or here for a reference - a "wey" is defined here). Hens likewise will lay roughly 4 dozen eggs per year each.

The second point is that generating a "realistic" monetary economy in a world with "adventurers" is somewhat problematic, even though it can be an interesting thought exercise. The problem is that influxes of "treasure" will cause untoward inflation. This will debase currency, but isn't necessarily a problem for the economy as a whole since it likely depends on money to a far lesser extent than we tend to assume from our own (modern) experience. Most transactions will be "in kind"; money will likely seldom change hands. The 'soldier' who is "hired" by the lord is likely retained on one of two bases:

1) In household. The soldier lives in the lord's household and is fed, clothed, armed and equipped by the household staff and incomes. The peasants pay their taxes in grain, livestock, dairy produce, wool, flax, fruit and so on - and the lords household process these to make meals and clothing and so on for the household members. The lord may even have an armourer who makes and maintains weapons and armour for the lord and all his men. The only money the soldier sees is if, as a special treat, he is given some to spend when the fair comes to town, or when he ventures out "on campaign" - likely with his lord.

2) By holding. The soldier holds some land, rights or priviledges that allow him to harvest either goods or some sort of income for himself. He doesn't "own" these lands or rights - he "holds" them from the lord (who he may rely upon to uphold them, if they are threatened). Peasants hold their land in a similar way - by (verbal) contract with the lord.

By the way, the word "farming", in medieval Europe, has another meaning to that we commonly use today. It means, essentially, "to rent". The "farmer" pays a set sum to the land (or rights) owner to have the use of the farmed land or rights and priviledges for a set period of time. A "farmer" is thus, strictly speaking, only someone who holds land or rights in this restricted sense. Most peasants are not "farmers", since they hold the land for labour services, not for money or goods rent, in medieval Europe. I mention this because it may help understand parts of the Walter of Henley text I referenced above. Sheriffs were sometimes "farmers", in the sense that they paid an annual sum to the king for the right to enact the king's law in a shire; any fines, taxes, fees and such that they could wring out of the inhabitants was then theirs to keep. This may well explain some of the "evil sheriff" tropes we see in such stories as "Robin Hood".

Next we have the idea of earning "interest" on the estate in order to assure future ressurrection. An intriguing idea, but it relies on two slightly bothersome aspects (that might even point up good adventure ideas...)

The idea of "rates of return" was certainly known in medieval times - the monestaries seem to have had rules of thumb that effectively amounted to a ~10% discounted cash flow rate of return policy.The issue is likely to be that this is limited, both by technology and by demographics. Capital, in economic terms, is broadly the gainful employment of an investment made by the younger generation in return for their upkeep while they are old. Eschewing ones "elder days" to die, to "sleep" a while might sound attractive in the abstract, but it has a couple of serious drawbacks. First is that investment return from ones own progeny is both safe and practical; the degree of capital leverage is small and the closeness of the individuals with whom it is "in trust" ensures that the debt is likely to be honoured. Stretch the term to generations, however, and I think both of these are in danger of breaking down - viz:

1) There is a danger that the amount of capital available, being more than that normally associated with the "pension" investment normally generated between generations, exceeds the capacity of the available technology to increase the productivity of the (younger) workers, and

2) The dead "Elders" would need to find ultimately trustworthy caretakers for their estates. This assumes either remarkable ancestral loyalty (it only takes one "bad egg"...) or an incredible degree of the "rule of law" in terms of property rights and so on.

Finally, on the "settlement in the wilds" situation, here are some "rules of thumb":

- Agriculturalists who know basically what they are doing can be taxed up to ~50% and still subsist with medieval-level technology.

- Much of the "tax" will be foodstuffs and such like - highly perishable - that is good for upkeep of servants and household locally, but likely to lose ~50% of its value if exported.

- Roughly 10% of what is produced would be the "normal" level of export to towns and such like.

- A household of, on average, 5 people (including children and old folk) can cultivate roughly 40 acres of arable land - or 16 households per square mile. Such a household will also prepare and cook their own food, make their own clothes and so on.

- The main thing such people will contract with a lord for is protection. We take law and order in the form of property rights for granted, but in a world with "monsters" - many of them human - this will not be so clear. The peasants can survive quite well on their land - if they are assured of their own safety and of their rights to the use of the land. They are generally quite well aware that the lord's own household seldom cultivates any land with its own people; if the lord fails to protect them, then their own part of the bargain (providing labour for the demesne fields and produce taxes) is naturally forfeit. In the extreme, they can just run away.

Interesting thread - to which I hope I have added interest and ideas. I don't mean the issues I raise as criticism, just some challenges to be overcome.
 

Finally, on the "settlement in the wilds" situation, here are some "rules of thumb":

- Agriculturalists who know basically what they are doing can be taxed up to ~50% and still subsist with medieval-level technology.

- Much of the "tax" will be foodstuffs and such like - highly perishable - that is good for upkeep of servants and household locally, but likely to lose ~50% of its value if exported.

- Roughly 10% of what is produced would be the "normal" level of export to towns and such like.

- A household of, on average, 5 people (including children and old folk) can cultivate roughly 40 acres of arable land - or 16 households per square mile. Such a household will also prepare and cook their own food, make their own clothes and so on.

I'd love rules of thumb like these, so thanks for this. But I'll question you anyhow . . . :)

"40 acres and a mule" sounds like a mid-19th century American farm -- literally what they thought freed slaves would need -- which I'd think involved a higher level of technology and more acreage than a medievel peasant family could deal with. Of course, 160 acres was a homestead under the 1862 Homestead Act, so perhaps 40 acres could be farmed very easily in the 19th century, and reasonably in medieval times?

50% in tax and 10% in export may or may not be high . . . but since I don't know the value of the peasant family's production, I don't really have a "useful" context for that anyhow.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
"40 acres and a mule" sounds like a mid-19th century American farm -- literally what they thought freed slaves would need -- which I'd think involved a higher level of technology and more acreage than a medievel peasant family could deal with. Of course, 160 acres was a homestead under the 1862 Homestead Act, so perhaps 40 acres could be farmed very easily in the 19th century, and reasonably in medieval times?
I misspoke in one important respect, sorry - that should be ~40 acres of agricultural land. Only a part of that would be arable. And the figure didn't change all that much - even though productivity went up - from 1300 to 1850 (see paper here). Note that this is how much the family can work, not how much they need to survive - they could theoretically survive on a much smaller plot if it was all good arable land.

50% in tax and 10% in export may or may not be high . . . but since I don't know the value of the peasant family's production, I don't really have a "useful" context for that anyhow.
The same paper as above estimates the split overall from manor estates as follows:

- Labour - 49%
- Land and church - 39%
- Capital (i.e. repair and replacement) - 12%

I round these off to 50/40/10 as a guideline. The lord is typically responsible for the capital, or at least most of it, but provides it with labour and materials supplied by the peasants as part of their annual obligation, hence it's a part of the "tax".

As a very general guide, if 1 sp per day is an "unskilled labourer" "wage", then you might assume that a day's work cultivating or similar "unskilled" work generates 2 sp of "goods in kind". Of these, the worker keeps 1 sp worth and 1 sp worth is split between the landlord, the church(es) and the cost of "domain upkeep" (the latter being ~0.2 to 0.25 sp per day worked on the domain). I say "domain" rather than "demesne", here, because it would cover all of the estate, not just the demesne lands, the produce of which goes to the landlord even though they are worked by the peasants (this being the most usual form of "tax").

In towns, the same 2 sp per day of value will be generated, but taxes work differently. Town taxes are mostly property and sales taxes, so they will generally be levied via rent for dwellings and prices in the marketplace. All assuming a "pseudo-medieval europe" setup, of course, but similar basic limitations will apply to whatever milieu you choose, even if the specifics are different.

The 10% export figure comes from the ratio of rural to urban population; a rural population exports only what the townsfolk need in the way of rural product, so the population ratio is a fair gauge of export %. Town populations were roughly 5% to 15% of the total population throughout the ancient and medieval period - thus medieval agriculture can support roughly one townsman per 7-19 rural population. In other words, 5-15% of the produced food and other agricultural goods goes to feed and supply the town population, who are estimated at 5-15% of the population total.
 

Cleon

Legend
Most peasants living in subsistence did have a croft to grow their meager food. Also, depending on location, a meal could be provided to the laborer alongside their work just to prevent the need for an extended period of leave to find lunch.

Exactly, it was common practice for the employer to feed their laborers when they worked away from home. My problem is that the cost of that doesn't appear to be incorporated in 3E's "a silver a day" price for a Labourer's services.

In Medieval and pre-medieval times, feeding a labouring workforce could easily cost more than actually paying them. Indeed, in many cases the lord wouldn't pay them, but had the right to a certain number of days free labour. They still have to eat, though.
 

Loonook

First Post
Exactly, it was common practice for the employer to feed their laborers when they worked away from home. My problem is that the cost of that doesn't appear to be incorporated in 3E's "a silver a day" price for a Labourer's services.

In Medieval and pre-medieval times, feeding a labouring workforce could easily cost more than actually paying them. Indeed, in many cases the lord wouldn't pay them, but had the right to a certain number of days free labour. They still have to eat, though.

Yes. But we are also working in a defined cash society. If you don't agree you can always have a laborer who is being fed by his workforce and receiving 1 sp/day have his upkeep covered.

If a farmer is growing their own food? Consider them as being covered to the 2 GP/month standard also. If the Farmer then decides to increase his standard of living he may go up further on the scale subtracting those costs.

An individual who is not being fed by the Lord still receives the 1sp and must fend for himself, receiving a net 1 GP/month not spend on his self-sufficient upkeep that he can then spend the rest on replacing clothing or such.

It really just depends on your specific demography.

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 

Cleon

Legend
Yes. But we are also working in a defined cash society. If you don't agree you can always have a laborer who is being fed by his workforce and receiving 1 sp/day have his upkeep covered.

If a farmer is growing their own food? Consider them as being covered to the 2 GP/month standard also. If the Farmer then decides to increase his standard of living he may go up further on the scale subtracting those costs.

An individual who is not being fed by the Lord still receives the 1sp and must fend for himself, receiving a net 1 GP/month not spend on his self-sufficient upkeep that he can then spend the rest on replacing clothing or such.

Sorry, I'm having trouble parsing your reply. D&D campaigns in general do seem to have more money-based economies than existed in the historical periods they pay lip service too, which were mostly built on crops of various kinds (rice, wool or whatever).

But think of it from a players' point of view. Say they want to hire some workmen to dig a moat (labourer = untrained hireling = 1 sp/day) or hire some warriors to guard their house while they go exploring (mercenary warriors = trained hireling = 3 sp/day) they are going to expect the money to cover all the expenses fora full day's work.

If the labourers only work for a couple of hours and then say "I'm on Self-Sufficient Upkeep, I'm off home to tend my fields!" or "it's time for lunch! What have you brought to feed us?" I'd likely get complaints.

But if the labourers are only getting paid enough to cover their food for that day (poor meals = 1 sp/day), why the heck are they working for hire? They're not even making money towards their 2 gp/month Self Sufficient upkeep.

Under the 3E RAW, a 1st level Commoner would make far more money performing DC 5 Craft checks and selling simple wooden items - they'd Craft an average of 5 gp per week assuming they have a +0 Skill modifier, which would leave them with a profit of 21 silver pieces and 6 coppers per week after they subtract the 1/3 cost of raw materials, 7 sp for a week of poor-quality meals plus the roughly 4 and 2/3rd silver pieces that a week of "Self Sufficiency" costs (2 gp * 7 day week / 30 day month).

It costs 3 silver a day to employ a trained hireling, which is "the typical daily wage for mercenary warriors, masons, craftsmen, scribes, teamsters". That's less than a peasant can make in profit from carving wooden spoons, going by the rules!

The costs and expenses of a 3E hired help just don't match, as far as I can tell.
 

Loonook

First Post
Sorry, I'm having trouble parsing your reply. D&D campaigns in general do seem to have more money-based economies than existed in the historical periods they pay lip service too, which were mostly built on crops of various kinds (rice, wool or whatever).

But think of it from a players' point of view. Say they want to hire some workmen to dig a moat (labourer = untrained hireling = 1 sp/day) or hire some warriors to guard their house while they go exploring (mercenary warriors = trained hireling = 3 sp/day) they are going to expect the money to cover all the expenses fora full day's work.

If the labourers only work for a couple of hours and then say "I'm on Self-Sufficient Upkeep, I'm off home to tend my fields!" or "it's time for lunch! What have you brought to feed us?" I'd likely get complaints.

But if the labourers are only getting paid enough to cover their food for that day (poor meals = 1 sp/day), why the heck are they working for hire? They're not even making money towards their 2 gp/month Self Sufficient upkeep.

Under the 3E RAW, a 1st level Commoner would make far more money performing DC 5 Craft checks and selling simple wooden items - they'd Craft an average of 5 gp per week assuming they have a +0 Skill modifier, which would leave them with a profit of 21 silver pieces and 6 coppers per week after they subtract the 1/3 cost of raw materials, 7 sp for a week of poor-quality meals plus the roughly 4 and 2/3rd silver pieces that a week of "Self Sufficiency" costs (2 gp * 7 day week / 30 day month).

It costs 3 silver a day to employ a trained hireling, which is "the typical daily wage for mercenary warriors, masons, craftsmen, scribes, teamsters". That's less than a peasant can make in profit from carving wooden spoons, going by the rules!

The costs and expenses of a 3E hired help just don't match, as far as I can tell.

Yes they can. By the same token you can make a nice living (and better than nice) selling quality wooden items or trinkets of your own... As long as you have someone to sell them to.

As I have stated upthread (and on my site in the article discussing the rough draft of the Manor Generator) I figure in the costs of Upkeep of household guards and other workers as above and beyond their wage for this specific reason. Also do the same for laborers if they are staying at the location (and include kitchen costs, upkeep, etc. into the equations for supporting various levels of upkeep) for this specific reason.

That's a benefit of being forced away from home. Per diem is pretty nice, and supplies you with a basic place to sleep and some food. Want to improve your lot? Pay for it.

You should definitely check out the Manor Generator. I have been away for some time due to an injury so I believe there are some updated things I could add to it but I am also working on a mass Market generator for dealing with fluctuating rates for all sorts of objects, a full-year Weather Generator, and a couple of other things to place up online so it is low down on the list.

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 

D&D campaigns in general do seem to have more money-based economies than existed in the historical periods they pay lip service too . . .

But think of it from a players' point of view. Say they want to hire some workmen to dig a moat (labourer = untrained hireling = 1 sp/day) or hire some warriors to guard their house while they go exploring (mercenary warriors = trained hireling = 3 sp/day) they are going to expect the money to cover all the expenses for a full day's work.

. . .

It costs 3 silver a day to employ a trained hireling, which is "the typical daily wage for mercenary warriors, masons, craftsmen, scribes, teamsters". That's less than a peasant can make in profit from carving wooden spoons, going by the rules!

The costs and expenses of a 3E hired help just don't match, as far as I can tell.

Hmmm, I never looked into the self-sufficiency rules or the Crafting for income rules. I've managed to avoid them so far, and I'll continue to.

I do take the approach, like you do, that the cost of hire listed (1 sp for common laborer) must be the full cost to the employer (PC), with no added extra costs.

If the food prices don't match, it must be because (waves hands) PC's get overcharged and live well. They buy everything at Whole Foods, not Costco like the peasants.

If the Crafting prices don't match, it must be because (waves hands) PC's are rock stars, and peasants will over pay for a wooden spoon PERSONALLY made by SIR PAUL MCCARTNEY much more than anonymous Spoons-for-Less product.
 

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