Discussion & Proposal: Regional Languages

I had that question as well, but forgot to add it to my post. As I see it, there are three possibilities:

1. Select a language from the full list.
2. Select from Deltan or one of the Landellian languages. Depending on character backstory, GMs may approve alternate regional languages on a case-by-case basis.
3. No free regional language. This gives players a tiny bit of incentive to create non-Venzan characters, and maybe create a bit more fo the world at the same time.

Or use Mowgli's proposal where Common and Venzan are different.

EDIT: Personally, I prefer Common = Venzan. I really do not like the idea that Common is a pidgin language, as it would lack a lot of subtlety that a natural language would have.

Systole said:

I had that question as well, but forgot to add it to my post. As I see it, there are three possibilities:

1. Select a language from the full list.
2. Select from Deltan or one of the Landellian languages. Depending on character backstory, GMs may approve alternate regional languages on a case-by-case basis.
3. No free regional language. This gives players a tiny bit of incentive to create non-Venzan characters, and maybe create a bit more fo the world at the same time.

Or use Mowgli's proposal where Common and Venzan are different.

EDIT: Personally, I prefer Common = Venzan. I really do not like the idea that Common is a pidgin language, as it would lack a lot of subtlety that a natural language would have.

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If we were to argue this from the perspective of real world cultures that are in some way contemporaneous with the type of technological and trade sophistication that exists in most Dungeons and Dragons and Similar Capaign Settings (ignoring those set in D20 Modern & Futuristic Settings). Then yes, the language that we know as Common, would most likely either be the most prevalent language of the world in which it is set (such as how Greek was the most prevalent language during the time of the Roman Empire and thus could be argued to have been the common language), or it would be some sort of pidgin language that is developed for use by tradesmen and adventurers similar to what is commonly known in most D&D settings as Thieves Cant or Bards Cant.

Though I personally like to think of Common being more similar in nature to the most affluent language of the day, than likening it to a Thieves Guild's cant. But that is just my opinion on the matter.

Systole said:

Here's my suggested list:

• Common is otherwise known as Venzan or Low Landellian, and is spoken in Venza and the surrounding areas. As Venza is the world’s most developed trade center, the Venzan language serves as the default common tongue throughout the known world.
• Middle Landellian in and around Tritower.
• Old Landellian and High Landellian are spoken in the Landadel Baronies. Old Landellian tends to be spoken in the more far-flung reaches.
• Deltan in the Ouhm River valley.
• Irthian in Irthos.
• Ha’Gruut by barbarian tribes in Seithr mountains northwest of Irthos.
• Stonetongue in most of the Seithr mountain ranges.
• Cavetongue for deep dwarves and other dwellers underground.
• Inner Sea including the areas of the Harran, Heth, and Rorn.
• Rhat’mani in the Rhat'Matanis region.
• Jira'shae in the lands of Jirago on the western continent.
• Northern Isle for the areas near Illi Esse.

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I've been thinking about this a lot since this was posted. A lot of good ideas here. I think I've come to like the idea of Venzan being considered 'Common' for the world, at least the eastern continent. But I always imagined Tritower as a colony of Venza that managed to acquire a measure of independence and would therefore speak the same language. Of course, as Tritower is sunshadow's brain-child he'd have a better idea of that city's history than I do.

Not quite how I would order the list (for example, I would make Ha'Gruut and Irthian as dialects of the Seithr language and I wouldn't call it Stonetongue) but I like the extra details in most of the names.

If you've got ideas you like about the Seithr stuff, don't let my proposal get in the way. A lot of what I suggested was just throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks. The parts of the proposal that I like are:

a. Venzan = Common. Speaking as a RL traveller, English is undoubtedly the world's most common second language. Speaking as an ESL teacher, English is a terrible second language, on account of the ridiculous irregulars, and the vowels and consonants that most other languages never use. English is the common language of today's world because it got lucky, not because it's a good second language.
b. I also like that Venzan is 'Low Landellian,' because in real world history, Lower Egypt was coastal while Upper Egypt was inland Egypt. Therefore coastal Landellian = Low Landellian.
c. I want there to be several offshoots of Landellian, in the same way that Latin became Spanish, French, Italian, Romanian, and Portuguese.
d. Cavetongue. Whatever you want to call it, I'd like to see something like Undercommon.
e. Jira'shae. I will fight you if you say no to Jira'shae. And I already put it in the wiki. So that makes it official. And I will fight you more.

Systole said:

Here's my suggested list:

• Common is otherwise known as Venzan or Low Landellian, and is spoken in Venza and the surrounding areas. As Venza is the world’s most developed trade center, the Venzan language serves as the default common tongue throughout the known world.
• Middle Landellian in and around Tritower.
• Old Landellian and High Landellian are spoken in the Landadel Baronies. Old Landellian tends to be spoken in the more far-flung reaches.
• Deltan in the Ouhm River valley.
• Irthian in Irthos.
• Ha’Gruut by barbarian tribes in Seithr mountains northwest of Irthos.
• Stonetongue in most of the Seithr mountain ranges.
• Cavetongue for deep dwarves and other dwellers underground.
• Inner Sea including the areas of the Harran, Heth, and Rorn.
• Rhat’mani in the Rhat'Matanis region.
• Jira'shae in the lands of Jirago on the western continent.
• Northern Isle for the areas near Illi Esse.

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I vote YES to the list above, including Venzan=Low Landadelan=Common.

I like GlassEye's idea about Irthian and Ha'Gruut being offshoots of Seithr (I don't care for Stonetongue as the name either - but Seithr would work for me). Note that I've already started using Finnish as a basis for Ha'Gruut so if we go this route Seithr and Irthian should have that general sound as well. (Same argument as Systole's for Jira'shae, and I completely see the logic there! )

If you're going to change Stonetongue to Seithran (which is a good idea -- I didn't really like Stonetongue either), I'd like to get an alternate for Cavetongue. Darktongue? Deep Speech? Speak-Stone-Dark? Or maybe something random-sounding like 'Chuachka' or 'Mord Uleth'?

"Mountain Tongue" was my first thought, but I'm not sure if that's any better. It shouldn't be this, but "Beard Tongue" and "Ale Tongue" make me chuckle.

Or we could pick a racial tongue like Dark Folk (horrible name for a language, btw) and say that it is as ubiquitous below as Low Landellian is above.

GlassEye said:

I've been thinking about this a lot since this was posted. A lot of good ideas here. I think I've come to like the idea of Venzan being considered 'Common' for the world, at least the eastern continent. But I always imagined Tritower as a colony of Venza that managed to acquire a measure of independence and would therefore speak the same language. Of course, as Tritower is sunshadow's brain-child he'd have a better idea of that city's history than I do.

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I can't speak to Tritower, but I do like the idea of Venza/Low Landellian being Common. We've already made Venza the place every adventurer comes to 'make it big,' so it works for me that Venza, while cosmopolitan, would have sort of forced the world to adapt to it. It also provides some nice possible tension regionally for places that might think themselves at least as full of opportunities.

That does still leave this question, insofar as PC's from Venza are concerned:

Systole said:

1. Select a language from the full list.
2. Select from Deltan or one of the Landellian languages. Depending on character backstory, GMs may approve alternate regional languages on a case-by-case basis.
3. No free regional language. This gives players a tiny bit of incentive to create non-Venzan characters, and maybe create a bit more fo the world at the same time.

Click to expand...

I kind of like the 3rd option best, myself. Regional languages were presented as mostly-fluff, anyway, so I don't think anyone is being 'robbed' of a significant game benefit if they choose Venzan home-grown for their locale. And if they feel that way, then--as Systole points out--there's an incentive to build characters from elsewhere, helping to flesh out the world.

GlassEye said:

Not quite how I would order the list (for example, I would make Ha'Gruut and Irthian as dialects of the Seithr language and I wouldn't call it Stonetongue) but I like the extra details in most of the names.

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I think someone else wanted Irthos to have a distinct language. I find it interesting that Landadel is brimming with derivatives while the three nations on the Inner Sea all share a language, too, but I'm not really opposed to such developments.

From my perspective, the remaining 'non-colorized' languages would be Stonetongue, Cavetongue, Inner Sea, and Northern Isle. Some fiddling with Google translate using languages I vaguely (and probably only for my own reasons) associate, plus a bit of mangling, how about these:

Uzka Mor for Inner Sea.
Bergnsprak for Stonetongue
Ogof'iaith for Cavetongue
Norey Jan for Northern Ilse

That's not a bad idea. If it's ubiquitous, then the source should be slavers, traders, or conquerors, or else a race that simply happens to be everywhere throughout LPF's version of the Underdark. The first three explanations would have a fairly strong impact on E'n history, and would require writing a lot of history which should have really affected life above ground in significant ways I don't think this is a great idea.


That leaves the fourth explanation, and the fourth explanation requires a race that's everywhere but is sort of innocuous and non-evil. Fortunately, I think there's a very good candidate for that: Pech. A race that didn't drive any major historical changes, but since they're simply everywhere throghout the Underdark, their language becomes the default for everyone else.