[Proposal] A Blast From the Past

DalkonCledwin · May 15, 2012

okay, so I was just reading the Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea World Guide and it mentions something in the section on Elves that brought back an old memory from back in the day when I used to play Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2nd Edition.

This reference was their mention of a sub-race of Elves known as "Aquatic Elves" who aside from the following differenes are virtually identical to traditional elves:

They have to have the aquatic sub-type.
They have the amphibious special quality.
They have a swim speed of 30 feet (same land speed as a normal elf).
They replace the standard Elf weapon familiarity with the following weapons: Rapier's, Short Swords, Tridents, and any weapon with the word "Elven" in the name.

In effect these Elves are the classic Aquatic Elf that was present in Dungeons and Dragons 2nd Edition, and featured prominently in the Dragonlance Novels. I was wondering, since we have Mermaids, would it be so far fetched to assume that we also have Aquatic Elves in the oceans of our game world? I am not asking whether it would be possible to add these as a player character race necessarily, but rather just for the possibility of adding them as a tool for Dungeon Masters if they so wish it.

Reference Material was found on page 25 of the Inner Sea World Guide.

HolyMan · May 16, 2012

The world has a lot of ocean in it there could be aquatic -gnomes, orcs, and ogres. A whole other world as it were.

You mentioned merfolk and that got me to thinking. Have we ever done a history of the merfolk race? I remember starting something as I was trying to give them a reason to be on land or at least crossing it to get to the larger of the two inner seas.

I don't see why an adventure with aquatic elves couldn't be made. This is RPGing and their is no limits to the imagination. If the race is added maybe they are like a myth (even to merfolk - who envy them having legs) or they don't have a nation and cities but are nomadic and follow the currents, and are seen rarely.

What were you thinking of doing with them?

HM

GlassEye · May 16, 2012

I'm not a fan of a myriad number of sub-races. There are plenty of unique races, aquatic or otherwise, to fill niches without having to rebrand all the 'regular' races in those niches.

DalkonCledwin · May 17, 2012

To answer your question HolyMan, I was thinking of the possibility of an adventure at some point that centers around a community of Aquatic Elves. But I haven't worked out all the details as of yet.

GlassEye said:
I'm not a fan of a myriad number of sub-races. There are plenty of unique races, aquatic or otherwise, to fill niches without having to rebrand all the 'regular' races in those niches.

So you wouldn't want to have Drow existing in the storyline for this very same reason? Or how about Deugar? Just because these races are additional sub races doesn't mean they aren't important parts of the fantasy experience.

GlassEye · May 17, 2012

Drow and Duergar are a different case. They have their own entries in the Bestiary. Yes, we could use the 3.5 aquatic elf updated to Pathfinder (if and where necessary) but merfolk have been the main underwater race since early on in LPF and I kinda think that using aquatic elves would detract from that. Undines and locathah are other neutral to good underwater races in the Bestiary. Plus elves have a very specific history in E'n that I don't really feel aquatic elves fit into.

Let me ask you this: what do aquatic elves bring to the table that can't be filled by merfolk or one of the other aquatic races already in existence?

DalkonCledwin · May 17, 2012

GlassEye said:
Drow and Duergar are a different case. They have their own entries in the Bestiary. Yes, we could use the 3.5 aquatic elf updated to Pathfinder (if and where necessary) but merfolk have been the main underwater race since early on in LPF and I kinda think that using aquatic elves would detract from that. Undines and locathah are other neutral to good underwater races in the Bestiary. Plus elves have a very specific history in E'n that I don't really feel aquatic elves fit into.

Let me ask you this: what do aquatic elves bring to the table that can't be filled by merfolk or one of the other aquatic races already in existence?

I fail to see what in that history specifically excludes Aquatic Elves from being part of E'n. In fact logistically speaking the very fact that the history doesn't mention the existence of Aquatic Elves (or for that matter the existence of the Drow) could be said to be a further reason to allow them both specifically. It could also be argued as a reason to ignore them both, but either argument could be made depending on who is arguing it.

Fact remains that Aquatic Elves have traditionally been a part of Dungeons and Dragons for a rather long time, and they are specifically mentioned as existing in the world of Golarion, even if they aren't part of the Beastiary. In point of fact one of the alternate Racial Traits for Elves that is present in the Advanced Players Guide already puts Elves pretty darn close to being Aquatic Elves to begin with.

Spirit of the Waters: Some elves have adapted to life in tune with the sea or along the reedy depths of wild rivers and lakes. They gain a +4 racial bonus on swim checks, can always take 10 while swimming, and may choose Aquan as a bonus language. They are proficient with longspear, trident, and net. This racial trait replaces elven magic and weapon familiarity racial Traits.

The only thing that this alternate racial trait doesn't do is grant the Elf in question the Aquan Sub-Type, or the Amphibious Trait. So if a character really wanted to play an Elf with an affinity for water they effectively could even without your say so I suppose. All I am suggesting is that we go ahead and approve Aquatic Elves for use for Dungeon Masters.

GlassEye · May 17, 2012

None of which answers my question.

To be blunt, I don't care what happened in 2nd edition D&D. I don't care what happens in Golarion. I care what happens in E'n.

Systole · May 17, 2012

I'd like to see the race balanced before it were even submitted for consideration, and frankly, freebie amphibious subtype is clearly not balanced.

Qik · May 17, 2012

As an aside, I personally view the Spirit of the Waters racial trait as replacing the conventional elven affinity with the forest with an affinity with water, but not giving them the necessary abilities to actually live in the water (i.e. amphibious and with a swim speed). So elves with that trait in my view would be very different from Aquatic Elves. I'm thinking more like Swamp People Elves - living on the bayou, comfortable with water, that sort of thing.

HolyMan · May 17, 2012

My thinking is why do they have to "be" elves and thus confer with the elven history and not just be merfolk with legs?

If a captain sailing upon the ocean ran into a triton he won't know what it's called but as soon as he saw the pointed ears he'd say "Look mates a sea elf!"

Or aquatic elves in E'n could be like assamir and tieflings. But they come about through human sailors mating with tritons. They gain the amphibious trait being the offspring of both water and air breathing parents.

Just thinking they may be called sea elves or aquatic elves but they really don't need to be related do they?

HM