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Monday, 21st May, 2012, 07:40 PM #91
The Grand Druid (Lvl 20)
Naw. Taxes are taken before they are spent and the right to complain, either at the polls or through other means, about how those taxes are later spent, is always a right of those being taxed (some of whom don't even have the right to vote).
But then you've also created a false equivalency. Buying a game sight unseen isn't the danger. The danger for WotC is that folks won't like the early design decisions then not buy into the game at all. The burden of creating a game that appeals to a wider audience than the last edition is one WotC has put on themselves. The burden of drawing feedback that helps them realize that end is also on them. Getting caught in an echo chamber of group think that leads to an edition that doesn't lead them to that goal is also a danger.
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Tuesday, 22nd May, 2012, 02:52 PM #92
Myrmidon (Lvl 10)
Osric, C&C or whatever etc. You can't put it back in the box- I guess they'd like to- the one edition to rule them all etc. But they were always going to say that, umm they're selling stuff- and I guess if enough people shouted loud enough then that'd be the thing that they'd be doing... I guess. But as you say Pathfinder is 3.75, some people have made the leap- WOTC is dead to them (or whatever).
Which just leads us with a consultion process, which is still six months (at least) from over, and subject to change- if lots of people wanted change- or things didn't work I'd like to think that WOTC would listen to that. It'd be great if everyone that ever played D&D (or any other RPG) would get involved, but the real world is WOTC have already lost a lot of good will (the understatement of the century), and plenty of people seem unconcerned- except to point out 5e is just... edition x with added whatever.
I'll do the polls, when I bump in to them- I'll encourage fellow players of any edition to also do so... I guess we need to shout it from the rooftops, but if they don't want to get involved, or else are feeling under-represented, I don't know- shout-louder, protest Wizards, create a Youtube anti-grappling rules protest song, be creative.
All the best fellow d20 roller.
4e Points of Light Campaign (with nice images) KOTS Complete & Thunderspire Complete, go here.
4e Goodman Gang Campaign (with nice images) Sellswords of Punjar Complete, go here.
4e Seven Dwarves Campaign (with nice images) Forges of the Mountain King in play, https://the-seven-dwarves.obsidianpo...ikis/main-page
5th Edition Lost Mine of Phandelver (and others) in play, go here.
Tuesday, 22nd May, 2012, 05:59 PM #93
The Grand Druid (Lvl 20)
I was only asking about the "plays well" part but obviously plenty of people who play other things than 4E use MapTools. I'm not sure why you couldn't run into any of them. As to the grid, I think you have the situation backwards. Any era D&D works great on a grid if you want to use a grid. 4E is more known for practically requiring a grid and miniatures. Your phrasing might be throwing me off, so if that is what you mean to be saying then my apologies for misunderstanding.
Oh, let's not go there. I'm not getting into a "3E started it!" edition war argument though it's interesting for someone to throw out a "3E did it first" meme after they were the one discussed the problem they had with 4E. I'm just going to stay out of that.
All I'm talking about here is the simple desire to buy a 5E that is ready to run as is and that allows for people to find players who are also running it as is. It's required for organized play, it's very much needed for convention and gameday play, and it's certainly easier for pickup games and when seeking new groups. Can you personally find a handful of players who will enjoy the same rules changes you make? Sure, that's not the point.
It's above my pay grade to figure out how WotC is supposed to get more feedback from previous edition players. If the staff they have can't figure it out, it's WotC's job to hire people who can. What they can do is work with the feedback they have and give it enough weight in the design process, if they truly feel they wish to appeal to the audience whence it came. If I have most people telling me they like red and a handful telling me they like blue, then I find a shade of purple to show them. I don't just show them red while whispering the word blue over and over. You not only won't attract more people who like blue, you'll lose the blue fans you have too. Furthermore, you eventually won't sell as much red as you hope because you've already got a red being sold and plenty of people who have it won't feel they need a new red.
I'm not sure why you keep coming back to that even after discussing the real point. None of that matters and what feedback WotC decides is worth incorporating is only important in regard to what audience WotC is trying to capture. Again, WotC said they want players from all editions. That's the bottomline and they are the ones who set it.
This isn't a "people who aren't giving feedback are complaining" problem. It's a "if WotC isn't getting feedback from people who aren't playing the current edition then they are unlikely to be doing enough to attract that feedback" problem. If you feel the answer is to then design the game based mostly off the feedback from people playing the current edition that's fine too. But you have to understand that isn't going to get WotC any closer to that bottomline they personally set, and likely will leave them far short of it. If they make a revised version of the current edition as the next edition, they won't bring in any former edition players and won't even carry over all of the current player base. This likely leads to an edition with an even shorter shelf life than the current edition.
So, you see, for WotC and those of us who want to see a successful new edition, this isn't about telling people if they don't give feedback they're just out of luck. That's doesn't put the ball in the back of the net. What we actually seem to be seeing here is a fundamental problem for WotC that they need to overcome. If they can't get much feedback from people not playing the current edition at this stage when it virtualy costs nothing across a medium that is renown for people voicing their opinions when given a free chance to do so, what can they be doing wrong? What is it about the way they are discussing the game, or maybe more so about what they are saying versus what they are actually doing, that is causing former editions fans to not even bother turning up to give much of their opinion? These seem like the questions WotC needs to answer, and quickly, if they don't want to spend the next year designing a game that doesn't attract the audience they need to make it a success.
You're much more pessimistic than I am. I still see time enough to make the course corrections to see them to their goal of a unifying edition. I just don't see the steps they are taking as being in keeping with that goal. I take it by your stance (if they don't give feedback then this is what they get) that you actually recognize what direction this is going too. Maybe that is what the designers are beginning to feel too.
I think that ball is in WotC;s court at this stage. I don't think that people are unaware of the new edition or that they can give feedback. I think that WotC is either not doing enough to draw them in or doing something that is keeping them away. I think they better figure it out quickly too.
Same to you. Keeping rolling.