D&D 4th Edition D&D Next Chat Transcript (Mike Mearls & Jeremy Crawford) - Page 8




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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Mahdi View Post
    5E should be able to run both high-magic and low-magic with equal ease, and have the mechanisms for doing this already in the rules. Or at least that's a goal the designers have stated (they're called "dials").

    You'll have to pardon me if I remain skeptical of such claims. Experience has taught me that when a system is not actively set up to resist such, the drift towards homogenization and the unique and special becoming common and mundane is well nigh [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8I9pYCl9AQ]inevitable.[/ame] As noted so well by pming, limitations are a good thing.

 

  • #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsuga C View Post
    You'll have to pardon me if I remain skeptical of such claims. Experience has taught me that when a system is not actively set up to resist such, the drift towards homogenization and the unique and special becoming common and mundane is well nigh inevitable. As noted so well by pming, limitations are a good thing.
    You'll have to pardon my disagreement.

    Choosing to be a pessimist seems an illogical approach, as is attempting to limit 5E to one's own personal preferences and biases.

    If everybody approached 5E optimistically, and worked to make it both the game they like, and the game that others will like, it can't help but be successful and awesome.

    It's a shame that peoples own biases and pessimism restrict the whole from being everything it can.


  • #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold Boots View Post
    It's not wrong for them to be classified as a non-paying customer, thus lapsed, and not a bad idea to try and get some of them to monetize by putting out a better product.
    If they mean lapsed customers, then say "hey we want you to buy our things again" and call them as such.

    Again, these people aren't lapsed D&D players, they're still playing D&D in some form. Just not the one WoTC wants them to.

  • #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by nillic View Post
    Again, these people aren't lapsed D&D players, they're still playing D&D in some form. Just not the one WoTC wants them to.
    And the ones that aren't playing D&D? What's D&D?

    Is Pathfinder? Is Arcana Evolved? They're based on D&D.
    Is DCC? is 13th Age? They're inspired by D&D.
    Is Gurps? Is Hero? They can be used to make fantasy RPGs.
    Is Shadowrun? Is World of Darkness? They're other RPGs.

    Not everyone who quits D&D goes back to D&D. Some go to other things. I've seen the 2e D&D era mentioned as a golden age of other RPGs because many people stopped playing D&D at all. Some of them came back for 3e. The concept of replacement goods is an important one.
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  • #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by hafrogman View Post
    And the ones that aren't playing D&D? What's D&D?

    Is Pathfinder? Is Arcana Evolved? They're based on D&D.
    Is DCC? is 13th Age? They're inspired by D&D.
    Is Gurps? Is Hero? They can be used to make fantasy RPGs.
    Is Shadowrun? Is World of Darkness? They're other RPGs.
    Admittedly, people who were attracted to these other games would be lapsed D&D players (assuming D&D is where they started) I cede that to you.

    I guess I'm just a little frustrated that the language WoTC is using (to me at least) portrays these people as yearning for something different or new or better. I'd just like them to be more upfront about what they're after.

    i.e. "Hey, we're making a new game and we think it's awesome and you should come try it out!"

    Because to me it just comes off as "We know you're unhappy with what you're playing, and we're going to make it all better"

    Like I said though, that's just how I'M interpreting all this.

  • #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by nillic View Post
    If they mean lapsed customers, then say "hey we want you to buy our things again" and call them as such.

    Again, these people aren't lapsed D&D players, they're still playing D&D in some form. Just not the one WoTC wants them to.
    This is a splitting hairs discussion. PM Trevor or Mearls and ask them what they mean...

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Mahdi View Post
    I don't entirely agree with the idea that it's the responsibility of the DM to take the rules and make them play the way they want for their group. It really shouldn't be necessary for a DM to have game design skills in order to play the game they want...which is essentially what you're saying. ?For those that do have such skills, they do definitely come in handy...but a system should not be designed with an expectation that it's users will have those skills.
    My experience is that a DM who runs a game for any length of time develops some rudimentary, applied design skill. DMs that don't generally aren't running their games for very long; regardless of the edition they're playing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold Boots View Post
    My experience is that a DM who runs a game for any length of time develops some rudimentary, applied design skill. DMs that don't generally aren't running their games for very long; regardless of the edition they're playing.
    One, not all DM's, even those with experience, develop such skills. Building a game in a manner that requires such skills is a mistake.

    Two, DM's have to start somewhere, and that means starting with no experience. Games need to be designed with beginners in mind also...to a certain extent. Building a game in a manner that overlooks this is also a mistake.

    Your experience is anecdotal, and not representative of the entirety of the player and DM base. Designing a game as if all DM's had the requisite design skills is a mistake.


  • #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Mahdi View Post
    One, not all DM's, even those with experience, develop such skills. Building a game in a manner that requires such skills is a mistake.

    Two, DM's have to start somewhere, and that means starting with no experience. Games need to be designed with beginners in mind also...to a certain extent. Building a game in a manner that overlooks this is also a mistake.

    Your experience is anecdotal, and not representative of the entirety of the player and DM base. Designing a game as if all DM's had the requisite design skills is a mistake.

    1. I know what my experience is. Thank you.

    2. Any game with the possible complexity of a RPG requires someone to develop some level of applied game design skill to run it long-term. It's not an option.

    3. You and I are having different conversations. If 5E has "dials" that increase or decrease complexity; this implies development of applied game design skill as a DM advances in table experience in order to determine what defines "balance" at his or her table.

    Thanks,
    KB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold Boots View Post
    1. I know what my experience is. Thank you.
    Okay...I'm glad we got that straight...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold Boots View Post
    2. Any game with the possible complexity of a RPG requires someone to develop some level of applied game design skill to run it long-term. It's not an option.
    There seems to be a flaw in that logic.

    If someone is able to run it as a beginner, which a game does need to facilitate, then no it doesn't require development of such skills for long term play. If one can DM it as a beginner, then one can DM it in prepetuity even if those skills are never developed.

    There skill at DM'ing will obviously not be as good as someone who has experience, but it's most obviously not a requirement. If it was, nobody would ever be able to DM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold Boots View Post
    3. You and I are having different conversations. If 5E has "dials" that increase or decrease complexity; this implies development of applied game design skill as a DM advances in table experience in order to determine what defines "balance" at his or her table.
    Not necessarily. It's only necessary if one is concerned with running a balanced game. That's not a universal consideration or constant. One can conceivable play even a "5E with dials" by simply picking the parts that sound good to them based on asctetics or just a "cool" factor, and completely ignore mechanical balance. It may not be a game you or I would want to play in, but it can be done...and likely will be done.

    Again, even in this scenario, prior design skill, even of a rudimentary nature, is not a requirement.

    Will one be better at using options if one does have such skills? Of course.

    But they are not a requirement.


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