Elephant in the room: rogue and fighter dailies.

Doug McCrae

Legend
But who is the "writer" in an RPG? Part of the issue with 2nd ed AD&D is that it is the GM who has to do the pushing - hence the tendency to railroading that I think is part of 2nd ed AD&D.
Yeah, that's a big problem. I think it would be better if the burden was taken off of the GM and instead some parts of the system - the story emulation parts - pushed against the more real world sim parts.

Mutants & Masterminds isn't vastly better than 2e AD&D in this respect. 2e is "I railroaded you" whereas M&M is "I railroaded you. Have a cookie." However the mere fact that the railroading and the giving of cookies - hero points - is enshrined in the rules makes it a lot more acceptable. Also that M&M is explicitly simulating a genre, and AD&D isn't, I think makes auto-captures from open play and the like a lot more reasonable.

But with M&M the percentage of text that emulates genre is still miniscule compared to the percentage that states how fast your PC can fly, how much he can lift, and how many points that costs, type-stuff.

I'd prefer a more even split. The way I see it, is that genre does have rules, potentially just as complex as more convential rpg rules. It's really not as impossible to codify, and requiring of a GM, as many game designers seem to think.
 

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Hussar

Legend
I suppose adopting something like FATE's bennies (I forget what they're called - brain fade) where you have disadvantages, but, you get rewarded for actually bringing them into play is one way to have the players drive the story more than the DM.

But, honestly, IMO, the only way you can really have players drive the story in anything more than the most surface level, is to allow players to build the road to some degree. Which means allowing players to add/subtract from the setting in a manner similar (although perhaps to a much lesser degree) than the DM.

We see this all the time during character generation where players are given largely free rein (within the constraints placed by the DM) on developing their character's background. "I grew up in a monastery" has in-game setting consequences. And players are generally encouraged to come up with these details and make them matter in game.

But, it seems that as soon as the "campaign" starts, all that power is then firmly planted back into the DM's chair and anything that wasn't stipulated at the beginning doesn't exist, unless the DM adds it.

Maybe adding in something like "Setting Points" instead of actions points. Once per level (or something like that) the players can add something to the campaign that is entirely outside their character.

Dunno, just spitballing.

((And, as a side note, I agree with Pemerton that the tenor of this thread has gone WAY up and, as someone who was dragging it down, I do apologize. As I said before, it's been a Hellish week at work.))
 

pemerton

Legend
with M&M the percentage of text that emulates genre is still miniscule compared to the percentage that states how fast your PC can fly, how much he can lift, and how many points that costs, type-stuff.
I think D20 Cthulhu is another example of this: pages and pages of gun rules, but nothing for chases, and little better than guidelines for dark secrets, sinister families, collecting clues etc.

The way I see it, is that genre does have rules, potentially just as complex as more convential rpg rules. It's really not as impossible to codify, and requiring of a GM, as many game designers seem to think.
This comment has reminded me of something else I was thinking about while cycling home last night - namely, on what basis it is said that encounters/dailies "don't correspond to anything in the gameworld".

In a couple of my 4e sessions this year - one a couple of weeks ago, the other a couple of months ago - the mid-paragon-tier PCs have found themselves fighting phalanxes of hobgoblins, which I've statted up as Huge and Gargantuan swarms.

In one of these fights, the tiefling paladin used his Questing Knight encounter power, Strength of Ten (close blast 3 weapon attack) to push the phalanx back. In the next turn, the phalanx moved forward and (using its swarm ability to occup an enemy's space) surrounded the paladin. The ranger let go an arrow from his fiery burst greatbow, which inflicted OG fire damage on the phalanx, as well as the paladin. The paladin, being a tiefling, didn't care about the fire, and wanted to try to set more of them on fire. Per page 42, I let him make an Intimidate check to deal additional fire damage on his attacks in return for granting combat advantage. The fight continued for a couple more rounds before the PC's focus turned to the hobgoblins' pet chimera.

For me, at least, the dissociation is not obvious. From a genre perspective, it's pretty clear what is going on. The paladin, as a Questing Knight, displays the strength of ten ordinary soldiers and pushes back a whole phalanx of hobgoblins. The hit point damage this inflicts (which is at a bonus because swarms are vulnerable to close attacks) reflects several hobgoblins being knocked down or killed. Then the hobgoblins rush him and surround him. But an arrow lands admidst them, exploding into a burst of flame that sets many hobgoblins, as well as the paladin, on fire. The paladin, aflame and surrounded by what is left of the phalanx, starts laying into them with wild abandon, and more hobgoblins fall to sword and flame.

At my table, at least, I don't think it occurred to anyone to ask "Why doesn't the paladin push back the phalanx a second time". And that's not because we're thinking of the Strength of Ten as a fire-and-forget spell: even though the paladin's weapon attacks are Divine and not Martial, we don't think of them as spells. They are divinely-inspired feats of martial prowess.

The encounter power is a player resource, which permits the player, once between short rests, to have his paladin display the Strength of Ten. But in the fiction, the paladin is not using his "Strength of Ten" ability. He's just displaying the strength of ten, inspired by his god and by his pursuit of his quest, and forcing back the phalanx. On the next turn, when the player chooses a different action for his PC - laying into the hobgoblins to try and set them on fire - it's again clear what is happening in the fiction, and what the PC is doing.

It's not even clear to me that the player has to leave actor stance - part of the cleverness of the way that D&D mixes its meta into its non-meta (with hp, healing surges, powers etc) is that the player/PC line gets sufficiently blurred that you can expend the meta whilst inhabiting your PC. As a matter of logic, it may be that the player leaves actor stance, but as a matter of phenomenology I don't know that this is true. (A different player in my group does leave actor stance - he's commented to me that one thing he likes about 4e is that it lets him play his PC rather than ben his PC, and he often talks about his PC in the third person. But the guy who plays the paladin is more of an old school "I am my character" type in his approach to roleplaying.)

It seems to me that the dissociation will only emerge if you turn your attention away from the stuff that is genre/thematic significant, and instead start asking genre-inappropriate questions, like "How come I only display the strength of ten once every 5 minutes?"

There can also be other corner cases - like what exactly is happening in the fiction if the paladin uses Strength of Ten - a weapon close blast 3 - against a single target 3 squares away? But that sort of case will hardly ever come up: a paladin is nearly always in close combat, and he will typically use Strength of Ten when he has multiple foes nearby, given that it's one of his small number of AoE attacks - whereas he has other single target weapon and ranged attacks. If the corner case did come up, then a quick bit of situation-appropriate narration would handle it. (Eg because Strength of Ten allows the paladin to shift to a square within the blast, you can just narrate it is a charge, even though technically the shift takes place after the attack.)

Again, it seems to me that only those who dwell on mere mechanical possibilities, rather than what is actually happening in play, will be "dissociated" by this sort of thing - and start coming up with all sorts of complex subsystems that replace the paladin's close blast mechanic with something else that simulates him forcing back a whole horde of foes with a single blow (say, some sort of pushback/ricochet mechanic).

Which once again takes the focus away from the genre approprite stuff - that this knight can display the Strength of Ten - and onto the process-simulation minutiae that have a tendency to bog down RPG mechanics.
 

pemerton

Legend
the only way you can really have players drive the story in anything more than the most surface level, is to allow players to build the road to some degree.

<snip>

Maybe adding in something like "Setting Points" instead of actions points. Once per level (or something like that) the players can add something to the campaign that is entirely outside their character.
I'm not sure that I agree, but maybe what I'm responding to is your suggestion for mechanical formalisation, rather than the underlying claim.

I think that for the players to drive the story, it has to be the priorities that they introduce into the game that matter. Who do they want to fight? To rescue? To ally with, or oppose?

For me, the first sign of a railroad is when the GM already knows, at the start of the campaign before the players have even built their PCs, who the BBEG will be.

But exactly how the players send the signals that establish their priorities can, I think, be pretty flexible. In my own case, I find that the signals they send during character building, plus the signals that they send in actual play, are pretty reliable. I don't feel a great need for better signalling machinery (which is not to say that I'd object to it either - I happen to play vanilla narrativist but have nothing against flavour). What I do want is mechanics that don't (i) obscure the signals, and (ii) make it hard for me, as GM, to respond to them.

In my own case, experience has taught me that the main way in which mechanics can get in the way is by shifting the focus of play, at the table, away from the stuff that speaks to story and theme and the players' concerns, and onto minutiae of setting-exploration for its own sake. Minute-by-minute timekeeping, wandering monsters, lots of searching for traps and treasure, etc have tended to be some of the main culprits here.
 

Hussar

Legend
I'm not sure that I agree, but maybe what I'm responding to is your suggestion for mechanical formalisation, rather than the underlying claim.

I think that for the players to drive the story, it has to be the priorities that they introduce into the game that matter. Who do they want to fight? To rescue? To ally with, or oppose?

For me, the first sign of a railroad is when the GM already knows, at the start of the campaign before the players have even built their PCs, who the BBEG will be.

But exactly how the players send the signals that establish their priorities can, I think, be pretty flexible. In my own case, I find that the signals they send during character building, plus the signals that they send in actual play, are pretty reliable. I don't feel a great need for better signalling machinery (which is not to say that I'd object to it either - I happen to play vanilla narrativist but have nothing against flavour). What I do want is mechanics that don't (i) obscure the signals, and (ii) make it hard for me, as GM, to respond to them.

In my own case, experience has taught me that the main way in which mechanics can get in the way is by shifting the focus of play, at the table, away from the stuff that speaks to story and theme and the players' concerns, and onto minutiae of setting-exploration for its own sake. Minute-by-minute timekeeping, wandering monsters, lots of searching for traps and treasure, etc have tended to be some of the main culprits here.

See, but that's the problem. err, maybe "problem" is too strong a word. The nub if you will. :D

The players can send signals, but, if the DM doesn't pick up on the signals, for whatever reason, the player's are pretty much SOL. Or, if the DM simply doesn't like the signals (no I don't want that in my game) the player still has no real recourse.

I totally agree about what should happen at the table - the players who want something in the game should be communicating that to the DM. But, I honestly don't think it's a bad thing to have more codified rules for players to do so.

Then again, I'm all about leveling the playing field around the game table. I'd much rather that everyone at the table is an equal. But, I also realize that this is my personal preference and not a wider thing. :D
 

pemerton

Legend
I'm all about leveling the playing field around the game table. I'd much rather that everyone at the table is an equal. But, I also realize that this is my personal preference and not a wider thing.
By your standards I'm probably a fairly traditional GM, but by general ENworld standards I get the vibe that I'm a fairly liberal GM.

For example, when one of the PCs - a human wizard - died in a recent session and the player wanted him to come back as a deva invoker, I was completely happy with that (and not especially surprised, given the prior path of development of the PC, and the direction I knew the player was taking him in) and straight away worked how to fit it in.

A different example from a recent session: the players wanted to recover a property in town from the wererats who were living in it, and instead of fighting them (which I'd assumed would happen) made legal inquiries, won a court case and then served an eviction notice on them.

The player of the dwarf has the artefact Whelm, but is a 2-hander specialist and so wants to have Whelm reforged as Overwhelm, a mordenkrad. His idea, and Whelm is currently with the dwarven smiths being reforged.

The player of the drow sorcerer who worships Corellon regularly makes up new details of his secret society and their rites and members and plans, and I dutifully incorporate these into the game.

But I'm still the gatekeeper, and the one who is responsible for mediating all this stuff into the broader backstory. So the players can still be surprised by stuff that comes out of their choices, or even out of stuff that they introduce into the game. For example, I used the court case against the wererats as a chance to introduce a political complication into the situation that the players hadn't expected and that their PCs don't want: their grounds for the eviction were that the assignment of title to the wererats was done by the Baron's wizard advisor, who - it turns out - was a traitor the whole time, and they successfully argued on this basis that none of his deads should have the force of law. In agreeing with them, the patriarch of Bahamut who was overseeing the hearing noted that the Baron, in whose name the wizard had acted, "surely wouldn't have consented to the action had he know - as sadly he didn't - that he was being used as a pawn of the traitor".

The players can send signals, but, if the DM doesn't pick up on the signals, for whatever reason, the player's are pretty much SOL. Or, if the DM simply doesn't like the signals (no I don't want that in my game) the player still has no real recourse.
For me, what you're describing is just crappy GMing. It really is the pits.

And it makes me want to pull out a favourite Ron Edwards quote; he's talking about another poster's problems sorting out authority over backstory and scene framing:

I think it has nothing at all to do with distributed authority, but rather with the group members' shared trust that situational authority is going to get exerted for maximal enjoyment among everyone. If, for example, we are playing a game in which I, alone, have full situational authority, and if everyone is confident that I will use that authority to get to stuff they want (for example, taking suggestions), then all is well. Or if we are playing a game in which we do "next person to the left frames each scene," and if that confidence is just as shared, around the table, that each of us will get to the stuff that others want (again, suggestions are accepted), then all is well.

It's not the distributed or not-distributed aspect of situational authority you're concerned with, it's your trust at the table, as a group, that your situations in the S[hared] I[maginary] S[pace] are worth anyone's time. Bluntly, you guys ought to work on that.​
A lot of my work as a GM is frankly doing stuff I'd do anyway, like thinking about ideas for stories and scenarios and reading and thinking about RPGs.

The bits I work hard at are (i) the record keeping, note keeping aspect (my group relies on me heavily fo that), and (ii) making sure that the way I frame situations, and then the way I adjudicate them within the confines of the action resolution mechanics, produces results that are worth my players' time.

I know that's not how everyone thinks of the GM's role, but I imagine that you (Hussar) can see where I'm coming from.
 


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