D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Charge Question

Aluvial · Jun 6, 2012

Hello again,

Today's questions are about charging. I know that a Charge is Full-Round Action. It can also be used as a Standard action IF you are limited to just a Standard or Move action.

My questions are,

1) Can you take a move action, in which you do not move, like store a weapon, then Charge with your Standard action?

2) Can you draw a weapon as part of your Charge?

3) Can you take a Free action and Charge?

4) 5' step and then Charge?

As for #1, when you say no, can you then also tell me why you think the rule shouldn't allow this? The spirit of the rule of a Charge implies that all you need is a partial action to Charge, the distance is affected of course, but the Charge implies a headlong rush into battle with some disregard for safety. I can see not being able to move around something and then Charging, but I don't have a problem with a character who wants to sheathe a weapon, then Charge. Do you think a character could drop a bow, pull a sword (with at least a +1 BAB) and Charge?

Aluvial

Tovec · Jun 6, 2012

Aluvial said:
Hello again,

Today's questions are about charging. I know that a Charge is Full-Round Action. It can also be used as a Standard action IF you are limited to just a Standard or Move action.

My questions are,

1) Can you take a move action, in which you do not move, like store a weapon, then Charge with your Standard action?

2) Can you draw a weapon as part of your Charge?

3) Can you take a Free action and Charge?

4) 5' step and then Charge?

As for #1, when you say no, can you then also tell me why you think the rule shouldn't allow this? The spirit of the rule of a Charge implies that all you need is a partial action to Charge, the distance is affected of course, but the Charge implies a headlong rush into battle with some disregard for safety. I can see not being able to move around something and then Charging, but I don't have a problem with a character who wants to sheathe a weapon, then Charge. Do you think a character could drop a bow, pull a sword (with at least a +1 BAB) and Charge?

Aluvial

No.
No.
Yes.
No.

Expanded form: You can charge. That is it. As a full round action you rush up and swing at someone. You can't do anything else that interferes with that. That includes drawing or sheathing a weapon.

You can't do a move action and then charge as a standard. You can charge only as a standard if and only if you are limited to only a standard action during your turn. For example, as if you are slowed and your standard takes as long as a full.

Otherwise, free actions don't take any time by definition, so you could use the feat quick draw to pull a weapon then charge but otherwise you can't pull a weapon as part of a move or charge.

Why no? You were never supposed to. The rule doesn't allow it at all. You could houserule it but the simple fact the rule doesn't come with a SA charge should be enough definition by itself. If you are going to start asking for justification then I would suggest starting with "why do I get bonuses on a charge" and go from there. Once again you can do a free action BEFORE the charge or after it but not during or as part of it.

Ultimately I'm guessing it is one of those balance issues but if you really have a problem with the limitations then simply drop them, or come up with a minor form. Perhaps allow the SA charge to happen - with the movement restrictions - as a standard action and keep the full round as it is. Just spit balling here.

irdeggman · Jun 6, 2012

1 - no. Because you are no limited to single action in this case, you have all of your actions and are using them to do something other than charge.

The reason for the exception was based on things like zombies who would never be able to charge since they are limited in actions and cases like a surprise round where you get a single action.

2 - technically no since this would either be a move action or a free action (if you have the quick draw feat or a +1 or better BAB)

3 - technically no. The exception is for when you are limited to a single move or standard action.

4 - never. You can only take a 5 ft step if you do no other movement in that round. Not "move actions" but movement, charging is movement. Also PHB pg 155 specifically states you can't take a 5 ft step and charge.

Tovec · Jun 6, 2012

irdeggman said:
3 - technically no. The exception is for when you are limited to a single move or standard action.

No on the free action question? I would say no to charge and SA, move or even swift, but FREE??

Aluvial · Jun 6, 2012

Damn, just lost my post.

Here's the short version.... Thanks for the clarifications. I will have a house rule that allows a creature to charge during their SA so long as they have not moved earlier in the round. Likewise, the creature can no longer move at the end of their charge.

This will allow the opportunity for creatures to pull a weapon with their (non-movement) move action, and then charge in. I will uphold the standard rule that you cannot pull a weapon during a Charge, despite having greater than a +0 BAB. I will allow Free actions before or after the Charge, and allow Immediate Actions (and I also use something like a reaction) while Charging wher applicable.

Before I write this into law for my campaign, can anyone think of any odd complications that may arrive with this rule in place?

Aluvial

irdeggman · Jun 6, 2012

Tovec said:
No on the free action question? I would say no to charge and SA, move or even swift, but FREE??

I said "technically", as in per RAW. I didn't say I wouldn't personally allow free actions. In general I would allow drawing a weapon as part of a charge if the character had quick draw or a +1 BAB, but that would be a house-rule.

Greenfield · Jun 6, 2012

Drawing a weapon as part of movement is legal if you have a BAB of +1 or higher, so I'd think you could combine such actions that way.

I see no reason why you can't do a Free action prior to, or after, a charge. I mean, who ever heard of a charge without a battle cry? (Speaking isn a Immediate action, by the book, but many DMs I know limit it to a Free, saying that you can't speak when it isn't your turn.)

Tovec · Jun 6, 2012

irdeggman said:
I said "technically", as in per RAW. I didn't say I wouldn't personally allow free actions. In general I would allow drawing a weapon as part of a charge if the character had quick draw or a +1 BAB, but that would be a house-rule.

Greenfield said:
Drawing a weapon as part of movement is legal if you have a BAB of +1 or higher, so I'd think you could combine such actions that way.

I see no reason why you can't do a Free action prior to, or after, a charge. I mean, who ever heard of a charge without a battle cry? (Speaking isn a Immediate action, by the book, but many DMs I know limit it to a Free, saying that you can't speak when it isn't your turn.)

Full-Round Action

A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions (see below).

Quick Draw [General]

Prerequisite

Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit

You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Normal

Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.

Which is why I ask, why "no technically", why no at all?

That's why I said Yes to #3.

So, you could technically say yes to drawing it (without the feat) as part of the move on the charge, though I wouldn't.

Nebten · Jun 6, 2012

Please turn to pages 141-142, and reference table 8-2 of your PHB.

You can draw a weapon as part of a regular move (aka Move), which is a type of "move action".

Charge is a "full-round action." While both have movement associated with it, one is a "move action" while the other is a "full-round action".

Other such full-round action that include movement are Run & Withdraw; move actions that include movement include Tumbling. All which by RAW, you cannot draw a weapon normally (even with +1 BAB). These are all special types of movement, none of which are considered a regular move.

If you have Quick Draw, drawing a weapon becomes a free action, thus the exception to the above rules.

In my experience, we have played under assumption/houserule that any type of movement allows a PC to draw their weapon. It isn't game breaking and is a little way to make the game my dynamtic.

But RAW, #2 is a No.

irdeggman · Jun 6, 2012

Nebten said:
Please turn to pages 141-142, and reference table 8-2 of your PHB.

You can draw a weapon as part of a regular move (aka Move), which is a type of "move action".

Charge is a "full-round action." While both have movement associated with it, one is a "move action" while the other is a "full-round action".

Other such full-round action that include movement are Run & Withdraw; move actions that include movement include Tumbling. All which by RAW, you cannot draw a weapon normally (even with +1 BAB). These are all special types of movement, none of which are considered a regular move.

If you have Quick Draw, drawing a weapon becomes a free action, thus the exception to the above rules.

In my experience, we have played under assumption/houserule that any type of movement allows a PC to draw their weapon. It isn't game breaking and is a little way to make the game my dynamtic.

But RAW, #2 is a No.

Absolutely true per RAW also note that a 5 ft step is not a regular move either so in order to take a 5 ft step and do a full attack and character must either have his weapons readied or have quick draw. Another thing I house-rule differently but per RAW is a rule.