Overclassed Multiclassing
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  1. #1
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    Overclassed Multiclassing

    So! First post in about 6 years. The band's getting back together, and by that I mean the gaming group on hiatus once we all started having kids is now getting those kids in a room to play.

    Trying out Trailblazer!

    The parental units are resurrecting their characters from before, and I've got one I wanted to make sure I wrapped up right:

    Rog2/Wiz1/Clr3/Fgt1/Human Paragon3 (who will spend his next 10 levels on Mystic Theurge).

    Sounds crazy, but there's a good player behind the sheet, so it works out.

    The two 'caster levels' of Human Paragon were applied to Wizard, so under Trailblazer:

    BMB: +6, Wizard +3, Cleric +3

    If I'm correct in my thinking, that leaves him with a readied and available magic slot table on the +6 line, of which he mixes/matches his readied spells from both the Cleric and Wizard list, yes? Plus whatever bonuses he gets on readied and domain spells from Wiz1 and Clr3.

    Mystic Theurge: TB says "These are the simplest to convert: grant the class +1 base magic bonus each time this entry appears on their list of class features".

    If I read this literally, I'd do the Mystic Theurge as +1 Wiz/+1 Clr each level, so that his progression would look like:

    HTML Code:
    <pre>
    Level     BMB     Wiz     Clr
      11       +8        +4     +4
      12       +10      +5     +5
      13       +12      +6     +6
               ..............
      20       +26      +13    +13
    </pre>
    The other option is to read it as +1 (Wiz and Clr), which goes like:

    HTML Code:
    <pre>
    Level     BMB     Wiz     Clr
      11       +7        +4     +4
      12       +8      +5     +5
      13       +9      +6     +6
               ..............
      20       +16      +13    +13
    </pre>
    which I presume is more sane. The final option (alternating Clr/Wiz) is inferior to simply multiclassing between Clr/Wiz for the next 10 levels, because you'd be better off getting the other class features.

    However! Stay with me a moment while abuse these folks' good works.

    ----

    Look at option #1. Look at the PC class spine calculations. Look back to option #1. This post is now cubic zirconium - here:

    If we calculate out the Mystic Theurge using TB's valuations, and assume along with the Wizard he'd be at d6 HD with two good saves, and let's say that Option #2 prices out as Spells + 1/2 Spells, since we're increasing caster level in two classes, plus base caster level:

    HTML Code:
    <pre>
    Class           HD       Saves     BAB       Skills      Spells    Features      TTL
    Mystic T      .24     .15         .14        .04        .61       .01               1.19 
    </pre>
    Not horribly out of line - matches the TB sorcerer on page 12.

    Now, let's say this: Mystic Theurge is a lot like grad school + post doc. Everything that's not your studies is ignored to the detriment of any other skill you'd need for an actual life. You're getting crap HD, crap saves, and crap skill points. Let's take HD/Saves/Skills back down to 3E Wizard. Then, we'll *double* the Spells value from TB.

    HTML Code:
    <pre>
    Class           HD       Saves     BAB       Skills      Spells    Features      TTL
    Mystic T      .21     .12         .14        .02        .82       .01               1.32
    </pre>
    And as in Option #1, just the Mystic Theurge part looks like:
    HTML Code:
    <pre>
    Level     BMB     Wiz     Clr
      10       +20     +10    +10
    </pre>
    The absolute max we could end up with due to MT's prereqs is:

    HTML Code:
    <pre>
    Level     BMB     Wiz     Clr
      20       +30     +15    +15
    </pre>
    doing Wiz5/Clr5/MT10.

    And the sane DM caps BMB at HD, which for Option #1 happens at level 17. For a PC doing the straight-in route, it happens at Level 13 - at which point your BMB in Wiz or Clr is 13 as well.

    ---

    OK! Abuse over. I'll go about doing that character's progression ignoring MT and alternating Wiz/Clr and see how that tickles things - the fact that in TB you're losing all the domain spells & bonus readied since they're in the class progression now rather than the 'caster level' progression is an interesting little twist to any Prestige Class that grant spell levels.

    Also, I've written this betwixt 5AM and 6AM local, so. Keep that in mind

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koewn View Post
    BMB: +6, Wizard +3, Cleric +3

    If I'm correct in my thinking, that leaves him with a readied and available magic slot table on the +6 line, of which he mixes/matches his readied spells from both the Cleric and Wizard list, yes? Plus whatever bonuses he gets on readied and domain spells from Wiz1 and Clr3.
    He's limited to 3rd level spells in both classes, but has spells available as a +6 BMB (plus extras from feats and such).

    For Mystic Theurge, simply increase the BMB by +1 per class level, and it counts as both Wizard and Cleric for determining the maximum level of spell available. So, at level 20, the character would have a BMB of 16, and count as both 13th level Wizard and 13th level Cleric.

    Does that clarify things for you?


    The build could spend the next 10 levels alternating class levels between Cleric and Wizard. The character would still hit a BMB of 16, with +8 Wizard and +8 Cleric, and the additional class features of each. Which might be a more effective build, overall, since he's not getting 9th level spells either way - though he's taking a lot longer to be able to actually cast 8th level spells.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ValhallaGH View Post

    Does that clarify things for you?

    Very much so, thank you. I think we'll have to look at Sorceror as well; since we're not tied to spells known anymore the extra (Sorc) slots may be more valuable than the extra Wizard readied spells, since he'll have a lot of choice from the cleric side as well.

  4. #4
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    He'll have a lot of choices, but he won't get to ready any more. He'll prepare spells as a +6 BMB caster (4/3/3/2 readied cast). Wizard will let him READY 4/4/3/2, but he'll only be able to Cast 12 [+ Bonus] spells per Rest. Sorcerer will let him CAST 4/4/3/2; however, he'll still only be able to READY 12 [+ Bonus] spells per Rest. Either way, all his readied spells have to come from the Wizard and Cleric lists.

    So, he's still only got 12 readied / casted spells, no matter which approach you use. I have found the increased flexibility of having additional Readied spells a lot more useful than the additional casting slots, because I can cast the same spell with all of my slots but I can't cast a spell that I have not readied. But that's going to vary by the campaign - some DMs pace things so that you'll need all those extra slots, even with the (moderately generous) mechanics of the 10-minute Rest.


    Good luck!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ValhallaGH View Post
    He'll have a lot of choices, but he won't get to ready any more. He'll prepare spells as a +6 BMB caster (4/3/3/2 readied cast). Wizard will let him READY 4/4/3/2, but he'll only be able to Cast 12 [+ Bonus] spells per Rest. Sorcerer will let him CAST 4/4/3/2; however, he'll still only be able to READY 12 [+ Bonus] spells per Rest. Either way, all his readied spells have to come from the Wizard and Cleric lists.

    So, he's still only got 12 readied / casted spells, no matter which approach you use. I have found the increased flexibility of having additional Readied spells a lot more useful than the additional casting slots, because I can cast the same spell with all of my slots but I can't cast a spell that I have not readied. But that's going to vary by the campaign - some DMs pace things so that you'll need all those extra slots, even with the (moderately generous) mechanics of the 10-minute Rest.

    Good luck!
    Sure. I'd meant that in the context of dropping Mystic Theurge, so he'd be getting the extra 'ready' slots from the actual Wizard class or the actual 'cast' slots from the sorcerer, and which one would best complement having the extra readied domain cleric spells (plus the cure readies). Although I forgot he's a Enchantment specialist, which will change things.

    I'll throw down the difference as I understand it, just for the next DM to come into the board looking for the answer:


    Wizard, Enchanter Specialist 3 / Cleric 3, +6 BMB, 18 INT (casting stat)

    Readied (0/1/2nd level, only +3 in either class)

    4/ 3 (+1 INT)(+2 Domain)(+Cure)( +2 Wiz)(+1 Enchant) / 3 (+1 INT)(+1 Domain)(+Cure)(+1 Wiz)(+1 Enchant)

    which, ignoring slots that require certain types of spell, and counting the spontaneous cures as a slot:

    Readied: 4/10/8

    Casting (0/1/2nd level):
    4/ 3 (+1 INT)(+1 Enchant) / 3 (+1 INT)(+1 Enchant)

    Casting: 4/5/5

    Sorcerer 3/Cleric 3:

    Readied (0/1/2nd level, only +3 in either class)

    4/ 3 (+1 INT)(+2 Domain)(+Cure) / 3 (+1 INT)(+1 Domain)(+Cure)

    Readied: 4/7/6

    Casting (0/1/2nd level):
    4 (+2 Sorc.) / 3 (+1 INT)(+2 Sorc) / 3 (+1 INT)

    Casting: 6/6/4

    Given that, I'm now thinking specialist wizard wins handily over Sorcerer - the extra 0th level spells the Sorc. gets rather than the Wizard's 1st/1st/2nd are some of what kills that.

    Wizard Casting : 4 / 4 (+1 Enchant) / 4 (+1 Enchant)
    Sorcer. Casting: 4 (+2 Arcane) / 4 (+2 Arcane) / 4

    Hopefully I did all that right.

  6. #6
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    As a Base Magic Bonus +6 character, he gets to cast 3rd level spells. Since he's got a +3 BMB from Wizard/Sorcerer, his maximum wizard spell level is 3. A +3 BMB from Cleric caps his cleric spell level at 3. So, his base ready / cast is:
    0 lvl - 4
    1 lvl - 3
    2 lvl - 3
    3 lvl - 2
    And he can pull from both lists when choosing spells to ready and cast.


    When determining base spell slots, use the BMB table. When determining maximum spell level of a given spell list, the limit is the BMB from the class(es) that gives access to that spell list.
    So, if he had 3 levels of Bard instead of Wizard, he would have a +2 BMB from Bard, giving a total BMB of +5 (+3 Cleric and +2 Bard). His maximum spell level is 3rd (for a +5 BMB), the highest level Cleric spell he can cast is 3rd level, and the highest level Bard spell he can cast is 2nd level. So, all of his third level spell slots will be used for either Cleric spells, or for lower-level spells.

    Good?


    For your specific examples:
    Wizard (Enchanter) 3 / Cleric 3
    Ready:
    0 lvl - 4 + 1 Enchantment + read magic + cure/inflict
    1 lvl - 5 + 1 Enchantment + 2 Domain + cure/inflict
    2 lvl - 4 + 1 Enchantment + 1 Domain + cure/inflict
    3 lvl - 2 + 1 Enchantment

    Cast:
    0 lvl - 4 + 1 Enchantment
    1 lvl - 3 + 1 Enchantment
    2 lvl - 3 + 1 Enchantment
    3 lvl - 2 + 1 Enchantment

    Sorcerer 3 / Cleric 3
    Ready:
    0 lvl - 4 + cure/inflict
    1 lvl - 3 + 2 Domain + cure/inflict
    2 lvl - 3 + 1 Domain + cure/inflict
    3 lvl - 2

    Cast:
    0 lvl - 6
    1 lvl - 5
    2 lvl - 3
    3 lvl - 2

    Analysis:
    The Wizard gets more prepared spells, can cast more 2nd & 3rd level spells, and gets more skill points (being Int based). The Sorcerer build is much more effective at Turn Undead, and gets to cast more 0 & 1st level spells.
    From the play-style hinted at in the old build, the player would be much more satisfied by the Wizard (Enchanter).


    Best of luck!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ValhallaGH View Post
    As a Base Magic Bonus +6 character, he gets to cast 3rd level spells. Since he's got a +3 BMB from Wizard/Sorcerer, his maximum wizard spell level is 3. A +3 BMB from Cleric caps his cleric spell level at 3. So, his base ready / cast is:
    0 lvl - 4
    1 lvl - 3
    2 lvl - 3
    3 lvl - 2
    And he can pull from both lists when choosing spells to ready and cast.
    OOooooooooooooooooh.

    I was reading BMB in the given class to have it's max spell level taken from the Base Spell Slots/Spells Readied table. (hence thinking a +3 BMB Cleric gets up to 2nd level spells, but that's only correct when it's really just a 3rd level Cleric without any other BMB sources?)

    And I see that's borne out by the text on page 27 above that table, now that I have evidently regained the ability to comprehend English, especially as it's even talking about a 3rd level Cleric! I swear I've read that thing 5 or 6 times now - I think what got me was bullet #3 - limited by "base magic bonus in the chosen class".

    Ah well. I think after 10 years of the "system" you get into a rut on what math goes where.

    Thank you very much! I don't know what I'll do to top that long winded exposition on a question with an obviously pre-presented, in the FM, answer.

  8. #8
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    You're welcome!

    Yeah, bullet #3 does lead to confusion. Which is odd; it's actually very explicit. The maximum class spell level you can cast is equal to your BMB from that class.
    Meanwhile, the maximum spell level you can cast is determined by the BMB table.
    You're not the first, nor the last, to try and use the BMB table to limit class spell level. I blame D&D 3.x, and the mindset that "mixed class casters will cast lower level spells that single class casters"; we all got into the habit of warping our brains to their logic, and unbending is ... an effort.

  9. #9
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    Thanks as usual, ValhallaGH.

    I'll just say this here: You can definitely trust VGH's answers on Trailblazer. Heck, I'd put his knowledge above my own (faulty) memory at this point.

    I should probably put him on the payroll.

    (If I had a payroll, that is...)

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