13th Age Discussion: A Love Letter to The Best Parts of D&D

Related to healing, is how resting and healing up works. (Or, here is how 13th Age solves the 15 minute workday.)

Broadly similar to the short rest/extended rest system, with a difference. An extended rest is only available penalty free after a set number of fights or otherwise challenging sequences. (Four by default, more for easy fights, fewer for harder ones.) An extended rest need not be eight hours - depending on how your GM rolls it could barely be a rest.

Taking an extended rest prematurely is possible, but incurs a "campaign loss," as in, your failure to tough it out means that the antagonists get a leg up on you somehow, in a way that merely beating up more monsters won't quite fix. They beat you to the Tomb of the Most Exalted Sword King, for example, or the hostage dies.

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, it feels a bit "meta," in a way that other rules in the game don't quite feel. A little too on the nose. It precludes scenarios where the dungeon (or other hostile environment) is there to be explored at the PC's own pace.

But on the other hand, most game I'm in - including Indy's - function on this as an unwritten rule already, where we are only getting into meaningful fights when we are racing the clock somehow. It does do its best to encourage players to push on and take risks, if they're sufficiently invested in the story that setbacks in their role in it would hurt more than potentially losing a character would. It speaks more to the sensibilities of 13th Age - fewer open-world dungeon crawls and more story-based antagonism. (Or, to use a metaphor by way of comparison: less Bethesda RPG and more Bioware RPG.)

I happen to think that the solution to the 15 minute adventurer day will happen when we stop recharging critical PC resources on a daily-rest schedule. In other words, the problem is largely self-created. But solving it might be beyond the scope of 13th Age, and in the meantime, this rule does a well enough job.

Isaac Chalk said:

Taking an extended rest prematurely is possible, but incurs a "campaign loss," as in, your failure to tough it out means that the antagonists get a leg up on you somehow, in a way that merely beating up more monsters won't quite fix. They beat you to the Tomb of the Most Exalted Sword King, for example, or the hostage dies.

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, it feels a bit "meta," in a way that other rules in the game don't quite feel. A little too on the nose. It precludes scenarios where the dungeon (or other hostile environment) is there to be explored at the PC's own pace.

Click to expand...

Oh, it's mega-meta. They outright tell the DM that rests should be a pre-planned event. But I find there's quite a bit of that in the playtest document. There are class abilities that refer to the designers by name.

I happen to think that the solution to the 15 minute adventurer day will happen when we stop recharging critical PC resources on a daily-rest schedule. In other words, the problem is largely self-created. But solving it might be beyond the scope of 13th Age, and in the meantime, this rule does a well enough job.

Click to expand...

IMO, I think the solution is for some types of attacks or actions to be "opening moves", which build up and unlock "finisher moves". That keeps players from going nova and shooting their wad in the first round.

The existence of dailies is a big part of the escalation die. It's a very ham-fisted way of encouraging players to reserve their big guns for later rounds. Not because of their actions, but because they simply have an inevitable advantage gradually handed to them.

Felon said:

Then you must've been playing another versio of the playtest. Or maybe you played past 1st level, and it gets better at some point. But at level 1, it's a pretty sorry sight.

The battlecry benefits are pretty meager--usually meangingless--and the bard is not equipped with good enough defenses to be a melee class.

The bard gets fewer spells/songs than other classes, and none of them are at-will. It either has dailies, or a song that has a 50% chance of burning out every round, and then a 50% chance of burning after the battle.

Regarding that as being as strong as what a cleric gets is beyond even the most generous comparison. Quantifiably awful.

Click to expand...

I created my bard at 1st level, then at 5th level, then at 7th. I only playtested at 7th. I played a multiclass PC at level 1, and I was far happier with the bard at level 1 as a build. Based on my earlier playtests, it seemed reasonable. At 7th I felt competitive with the cleric.

My level 7 bard could:

• Basic attack based on D8, not too shabby
• Due to feats and background, be skill-wise as good as or better than any rogue for traps/stealth (had a 6 due to feat)
• Continue a song even while unconscious for a round (feat)
• Use my Int instead of Int and poach a Wizard spell (Shield)
• Get wizard cantrips due to a feat
• 1st battlecry: make basic attack, if I roll well myself and an ally gain significant (boosted by feat) temps
• 2nd battlecry when escalation die is high can give ally a recovery (pretty useful in long fights)
• 3rd battlecry: when I miss on even roll, grant attack bonus vs that target to an ally
• 4th battlecry: grant save on any even hit.
• Daily song to grant a big amount of temps, sustainable with quick/minor action each round and grants an ally a recover when I fail.
• Soundburst spell for big dammage and daze
• Song of Thunder for medium damage to many foes, but sustainable so I can keep doing it each round.
• Arrow of Verse recharge spell for big damage to one target that gets bigger with escalation die.
• Song of Magic daily song to allow allies not to expend their spells, sustainable, and when song ends get attack bonus
• Shield each encounter (wizard spell)
• Song of Blood and Legends daily sustainable song to allow recoveries when allies hit a foe, when it ends grants an ally an attack and recovery

That's an impressive array of abilities, and meant for a player that likes a complex PC (which I generally do). The key to me was two factors: 1) Making basic attacks I can generate the battlecry effects as a basically free cool rider. By choosing carefully, you will get a battlecry more than half the time. 2) The songs are sustainable, meaning they keep on creating the cool effect. That's the edge that makes you competitive with other casters/buffers. I can grant temps every round or deal damage to 2d3 foes every round, etc. I have enough songs for a wide variety of approaches based on the type of combat.

At level 1 I obviously had fewer options, but I was still generating a battlecry on any even hit, on any even roll, and on any roll of 16+. That's pretty often. Song of Heroes was a recharge attack boost , Soundburst good damage, and Melf's Acid Arrow was my wizard spell. And I had the cool skill side to my PC.

IndyPendant said:

--I'm somewhat neutral on the escalation die; I suspect it's a gimmick that shouldn't be needed most of the time with a good GM--but a reasonably good way of ending a battle if (as I have occasionally) the GM makes a mistake on a combat's fun or overall length.

--Not enough options in the current playtest. I played a bard too for example, and could pick three class features...out of a total of eight, two pairs of which were designated mutually exclusive. There were only two to four new bard spells to choose from each level. That sort of theme seemed prevalent throughout the book, not just the bard class. It was a playtest though, so hopefully the final version will have more options available.

--Based on what I saw from the playtest document, I'm frankly skeptical they'll be able to deliver on the many, many promising features of the system. Great potential, but August/September doesn't seem to be enough time to develop them.

Click to expand...

Those are good points. I liked the escalation die, though I felt monster defenses were overall too high. I wanted the escalation die to bring a quick end to the combat, not to enable hitting at reasonable rates.

The dearth of options was absolutely an issue. It was hard for some classes to avoid making certain choices because only those choices had feat support. In general spells weren't an issue for me because you could choose lower level spells at higher levels (scaled upwards), but I found the issue really prevalent with class features and feats (or feats based off of spells/combat options).

But, those are correctable - they are tweaks rather than critical flaws. It can certainly be done by August if they choose to do so. They may also choose to add features later and just correct core math issues and balance issues. That may be the most sound choice. The game is fun and playable and a later book could round out the PC choices, introduce another class or two, etc.

Escalation Edition V1 is available for download for the pre-orders.

I like what I've had a chance to skim so far. I'll have a closer look this weekend.

And back! Sorry, been away.

I got my Escalation Edition pre-order as well. Going through it, I like most of the tweaks I've seen (though this thing is still not pretty by modern RPG standards, pure black text on white with no formatting.)

One thing I think I forgot to mention is the 13th Age solution to the "welp, you're dead, go play celphone games for a few hours while the combat goes on" problem - when you're down and out and can't make rolls, or you split the party because you ignored the WOTC marketing department, you can "fight in spirit."

What this means is that you can grant a benefit to your close friends and comrades as they remember how you'd have done it were you actually here (or actually alive.) What you do is describe the inspiration you'd provide - "Honeybottom the Ambiguously Gendered Halfling* would NEVER give up, so neither would I," or "as you see O'Brien the Barbarian fall, you feel yourself gripped by a tiny equivalent of his mighty berserker strength" - and if the GM agrees that this is awesome, then you grant a bonus to your friends.

I'm stealing this for any combat-intensive game I run because it's perfect. It lets the player stay involved in a fight rather than succumbing to the Twitter Sickness; it encourages role-playing in the midst of high-crunch activity like combat; and it's such a lovely "oh, it's ON" moment.

* This is a real character in 13th Age.

I have to admit Im intrigued, but is there any sort of "sampler" document available? I wouldnt mind having slightly more substantial information in order to be able to ascertain whether it is what Im looking for before I actually fork out the dollars.

I jsut couldnt see anything on the website other than to "buy" the pre-order.

BobTheNob said:

I have to admit Im intrigued, but is there any sort of "sampler" document available? I wouldnt mind having slightly more substantial information in order to be able to ascertain whether it is what Im looking for before I actually fork out the dollars.

I jsut couldnt see anything on the website other than to "buy" the pre-order.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Some sort of quick start or preview document would be nice and may encourage a pre-order from me.

One question about backgrounds, is it like the Barbarians of Lemuria careers? In other words if I have 3 ranks in Barbarian then I get a plus 3 to any check that a Barbarian may be good at (I.e. tracking, survival, hunting, etc.).

Yes, having a sampler or quickstart rules allows me to make an informed decision before plunking down my money.

The other big thing for me is being available in PDF format. Due to vision problems, reading paper copies is difficult. Anymore, I cannot run and RPG that doesn't come in PDF format (and not some low grade scan of the physical book).

fjw70 said:

One question about backgrounds, is it like the Barbarians of Lemuria careers? In other words if I have 3 ranks in Barbarian then I get a plus 3 to any check that a Barbarian may be good at (I.e. tracking, survival, hunting, etc.).

Click to expand...

13th Age backgrounds are descriptive in nature and you would gain bonuses to anything you and the DM agree would qualify. The game encourages you to select backgrounds with minor DM oversight. You might go for Royal Cook, for example, and gain bonuses in a variety of situations. While some of this means it really shines with a good DM and players, that seems to be the intention of the game. It is written for generally experienced players and DMs. The upside ends up being a richer experience and more participation as you find in-character connections between your backstory and the campaign/setting/adventure. Overall, I like the 13th Age backgrounds (and similarly like the D&D Next ones).