New RPG Company Casting All Women for Genesys

Felon · Jun 17, 2012

K. Amaloo said:
None of the women I've ever gotten to try the game was particularly put off by the violence of it. This argument might hold more water if a huge subsection of gamer women didn't play inherently violent games like WOW. As it is, I think this is one of the more pernicious myths that get bandied about.

That most women are not into violent pursuits is not mythical. It is quite self-evident through the examples I provided above.

Morrus · Jun 17, 2012

Felon said:
. It's a niche interest, and to finger cheesecake as the smoking gun puts the burden of proof on the accuser.

But it doesn't; there is no burden of proof here. Nobody is obligated to prove to you, me, or anyone else, that something makes them feel the way they say it does (indeed - how could they?)

Nah; the burden here isn't one of a court of law. It's a burden of social nicety: if someone tells you something makes them feel a certain way, then believe them.

Why wouldn't you? How could one claim to know better?

Kamaloo · Jun 17, 2012

Felon said:
That most women are not into violent pursuits is not mythical. It is quite self-evident through the examples I provided above.

So because women don't tend to do things that we're socially and traditionally conditioned not to do, that means we inherently have no desire to do them?

Out of curiousity, are you familiar with the term "mansplaining?"

Felon · Jun 17, 2012

K. Amaloo said:
TanithT and Morrus have spoken extremely cogent arguments against the objectivication of women that I, at least, have experienced turning a number of women off gaming forever. I'd just like to say that the mere fact that many people can't see a problem with such behavior is appalling to me. They may justify their view with arguments like, "everybody does it!", "there are bigger problems to worry about!" or "if it pays, it must be fine!", but as a woman, I'd like to state that IT IS NOT FINE, it is a plenty big enough problem for this hobby, and as others have stated, the existence of a problem elsewhere doesn't make it okay for that problem to exist in your backyard.

In the above paragraph, I think you are mischaracterizing many peoples' point-of-view. Being so reductive of others' positions is invariably going to lead you to react to them negatively. The question is, are you giving the opposing the benefit of the doubt? Or are you inclined to simply write those positions off as "justifications" or "not holding water"?

Feeling unwelcome in your own hobby so that the men can be pleased is an unpleasant thing. One poster argued against TanithT's analogy of the hobby as a restaurant by saying, "if you don't like the restaurant, find a different one." I believe TanithT wasn't referring to this particular RPG with her analogy, but to the hobby as a whole. I'd like to think that person wasn't telling us to get out of the entire hobby if it makes us feel unwelcome?

How about: NO. I'd rather voice an argument against that pervasive attitude that women in games exist to be, at best, rescued and/or ogled, and hope that game designers now and in the future hear that argument. If enough of us make it, maybe things will change.

Giving that person the benefit of the doubt, they're saying the same thing as I did: there is a lot of product to choose from. Do not consume products that you find repugnant. And feel free to try sway others. But in turn realize that entails an obligation of fully hearing out the opposing point-of-view, otherwise it's a monologue rather than a discussion.

Don't you want to see more women at your tables?

Let me blunt here: In my exprience, I've found the average gamer to be selfish, prone to anger and avarice, and either utterly self-involved and apathetic towards the other people at the table, or ready to pass judgment on them in the most high-handed fashion. This hobby is a magnet for the maladjusted. The articulate and enlightened folks on this forum? Don't seem to run into them.

My group has welcomed a few female gamers to the table. They played healers or things that had pets, which was a little different. However, they also conveyed saccharine and passive-aggressive attitudes, and eventually went away when they realized they would have to tolerate diverse playstyles rather than see those other players ejected from the group. Which is exactly what's happened with most of the guys who joined us for a while. In short, their gender didn't contribute much one way or the other.

Felon · Jun 17, 2012

Morrus said:
But it doesn't; there is no burden of proof here. Nobody is obligated to prove to you, me, or anyone else, that something makes them feel the way they say it does (indeed - how could they?)

You don't have to vindicate your feelings. But if you say that cheesecake is the smoking gun for why the throngs of potential female gamers won't join the hobby--well, I just don't weigh the handful of respondents here as being a bombshell case-closer. People are inclined to post about something that bothers. People who are not bothered move on with their lives.

K. Amaloo said:
So because women don't tend to do things that we're socially and traditionally conditioned not to do, that means we inherently have no desire to do them?

I think that there are biological differences that lead to different attitudes. Testosterone gives men aggression for which they need a release, for instance. And women do have a biological tendency towards nurturing. I am, of course, speaking in broad terms. All things have exceptions, but if the traits I'm talking about were chiefly just simple social conditioning, they wouldn't be so nigh-universal. But we're talking about more than some paradigm we can shift.

Out of curiousity, are you familiar with the term "mansplaining?"

No, but I'm a pretty good guesser, and I'm going to bet it's fairly reductive and potentially sexist in its own right.

Morrus · Jun 17, 2012

Felon said:
You don't have to vindicate your feelings. But if you say that cheesecake is the smoking gun for why the throngs of potential female gamers won't join the hobby--well, I just don't the handful of respondents here as being sufficient proof. People are inclined to post about something that bothers. People who are not bothered move on with their lives.

True; I'll concede that a small handful of people is not a representative sample.

But I will add that this is hardly the first time we've heard women saying this. It's not an isolated thread. It's something I've heard repeatedly on RPG forums for as long as I can remember reading such forums. The overwhelming impression to me is that this is a common feeling amongst female gamers.

Maybe I'm wrong. I really don't think I am, though; and the women right here in this thread should be listened to.

Felon · Jun 17, 2012

Morrus said:
Maybe I'm wrong. I really don't think I am, though; and the women right here in this thread should be listened to.

Certainly. A diverse array of perspectives is desirable.

Felon · Jun 17, 2012

Elf Witch said:
How old are you? I have found that the older I get the less I count. I am a huge geek when it comes to fantasy and SF TV shows but that does not matter to the advertisers because I don't fit that coveted 19 to 29 male demographics.

Up until very recently make up companies did not bother to make make up for older woman we had to straggle to find something that was not full of glitz and glitter. That is slowly changing thanks to the huge amount of baby boomers with money to spend.

I know what it feels like to be made uncomfortable by a hobby that focuses on just the guys I lived it during the 70s and mid 80s. When you were lucky if you could find a mini that was not half nude or deal with the whole idea that female characters are not as good as the male characters or hey your the chick go take off your armor and go distract the guards.

I have been to many a gaming or SF con and over heard fat male fans lament on the lack of really hot chicks.

And that fact that a company that is claiming to have a lot of females in it and is diverse is not showing that but just want gorgeous hot gamers chicks is discouraging to me. Beauty is more than just cheesecake. Look at Frazetta art those woman may be submissive but they sure are not skinny with big boobs. They have full figures dare I say it in today standards they would be called fat.

I have a god daughter who is a beautiful healthy girl she is athletic competes in cross country running. She is 5 11 and weighs a 155 pounds of solid muscle. Yet she worries that she is fat because gasp she wears a size 12 and everyone knows that a size 12 is now considered a plus size. Marilyn Monroe wore a size 12.

At school she is picked on by the size 0 Queen Bees because she does not look like them. What females do to other females is far worse than what any guy does.

I think this kind of unhealthy competition is encouraged by society. We put little girls in pageants to compete in beauty. Girls has young as seven have died from anorexia. We pay thousands of dollars for treatments to conform to what is in style.

This company can advertise any way they want to but I can also choose not to buy their product.

I would say that there are all kinds of unfair biases towards physical appearance. A man who is short and/or bald is typically not gonna be the leading man in a film, but rather a buffoon or a jerk. He's also going to hear what a great friend he is by the ladies a lot more often. And being overweight? Guys get picked on for that too. Although, if a guy is tall, that seems to heavily offset anything else. It is a tall, rich-man's world.

When talking of physical discrimination, it's a big club, filled with people from both genders, and it's unfortunate that it is so big. Once again, I say biology plays a big part in this as well. Certain traits attract members of the opposite sex, while others are off-putting.

Some of struggle to put it right (which is valiant but futile), while others take advantage of it. You seem to have exercised the proper action towards this product: don't buy it. I'll likely follow suit.

Greatwyrm · Jun 17, 2012

Felon said:
You seem to have exercised the proper action towards this product: don't buy it.

Call me old-fashioned, but I'm accustomed to someone producing a product before I boycott it.

Lets think, just for a moment, that maybe the folks at FableStreams true to their word. Maybe, just maybe, they really are after Felicia Day and Sarah Darkmagic, rather than Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton. We really can't at least wait long enough for them to actually put up or shut up?

Someone said earlier this looked like a press release written by a hype company and not a gaming company. Maybe I'm unique as the only person here to have ever spoken poorly chosen words or to have had someone say something really dumb on my behalf. But are we really going to start going all Minority Report when these people haven't even produced anything yet?

Felon · Jun 17, 2012

Greatwyrm said:
Call me old-fashioned, but I'm accustomed to someone producing a product before I boycott it.

Lets think, just for a moment, that maybe the folks at FableStreams true to their word.

I don't know why you're going after the person whose had the least adversarial attitude towards this product in the last few pages, but the response is simple: when people have new information, they are free to revise their estimation. That's rather implicit. However, you don't need to see a final product for everything. Sometimes broad strokes and first impressions do just fine.

Someone said earlier this looked like a press release written by a hype company and not a gaming company. Maybe I'm unique as the only person here to have ever spoken poorly chosen words or to have had someone say something really dumb on my behalf. But are we really going to start going all Minority Report when these people haven't even produced anything yet?

Making judgments about a product based directly on what its vendor tells you about it is not Minority Report. That's Preliminary Report. If the press release was poorly-executed, then they need to retract it, issue a new one, and then we can re-assess.