New RPG Company Casting All Women for Genesys

Greatwyrm

Been here a while...
I don't know why you're going after the person whose had the least adversarial attitude towards this product in the last few pages...

I'm not going after anyone. You were just the most recent person to say something like that. I'm just a little surprised at the general attitude that a book that doesn't exist yet simply must be awful.

That's rather implicit. However, you don't need to see a final product for everything. Sometimes broad strokes and first impressions do just fine.

Okay, let's get a first impression from their website.

Genesys_Alpha-Cover.jpg


battle.jpg


party-300x205.jpg


chimera.jpg


dragonchase.jpg


So far, I'm not seeing an endless stream of T&A. Ya, I see the wardrobe of the blonde in pics 1 and 2. There's probably no excuse for wearing a two-piece to steal a dragon egg either. But this doesn't look like "Sex Object: the RPG" to me.

If the press release was poorly-executed, then they need to retract it, issue a new one, and then we can re-assess.

I think it's fair to say there are conflicting opinions and interpretations of that release, given what the people who released it have said.
 

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TanithT

First Post
As I stated before, I do not see it as a given that women feel excluded by virtue of cheesecake that is, frankly, not overrepresented.

I can't speak for all women; that would be silly. I can say that I feel this way, and that every other female gamer I've ever talked to feels this way, and all the women posting in this thread who don't work for Genesys feel that way. That's all.

I don't feel quite ambitious enough to undertake a full statistical count myself, though I did an informal one while looking through some random modules I got for Free RPG Day at a local store this afternoon.

One of the supps - specifically the Pathfinder one, huzzah - was really, really good about showing female characters in totally appropriate clothes. Even better, there was a dark skinned female paladin in full plate mail. The mail did have small cups, which I truly wouldn't recommend for fighting in, but most artists aren't going to have enough experience to know that. And the cups were definitely not emphasized; they were relatively small and the armor was properly large and blocky. No skin showing that was not on her face.

The only stupid/skimpy armor in that book was on a succubus, which makes enough sense to get a total pass from me. The succubus belonged in the module as a logical part of the plot, and they use sex as a weapon, so the depiction was not gratuitous. Score for Pathfinder's "Dawn of the Scarlet Sun" module, A+. No facepalming.

The Warhammer 40K freebie, "Only War: Eleventh Hour" also gets an A. It has a single female image, plus one character in the far background on the cover that is probably female. Both are appropriately dressed and holding weapons, just like the men. The female fighter looks bad@$$ but not ridiculous, like a real woman who seriously lifts weights and runs around the jungle with heavy weapons on her back. She is sleeveless, but so are most of the men, because they are all depicted as running around in a grungy, sweaty, tropical environment. So the assorted states of undress (shirtless for some men, light/sleeveless for the woman) all make sense for the environment.

Good job, Games Workshop. The only reason it's an A rather an A+ is that the male images substantially outnumber the female ones; there were only two of the latter and twelve of the former,, and one of the female images was a small one in the background of a larger image, where the men were the primary focus.

The D&D "Dead In The Eye" module had no character art at all. It did have one advertisement in the back that included a drow in dubiously skimpy armor, but the drow was male. He was depicted as powerful and evil, as well as fit and strong. You could probably argue that this was a sexualized male image, though there was enough else going on that I still saw it as primarily a character illustration. Still, it met the criteria for impractically skimpy armor.

The Harn map had 12 total human images. None were of females alone; most were of males alone. Many of the males have weapons and armor, or are shown as other types of adventurers. Three of the images contained a female. Two were depicted neutrally, as normal people in ordinary clothing. None were shown as adventurers or fighters, or with weapons. One is a queen, the other two are in peasant-ish garb. One woman in a peasant dress was being restrained with a hand over her mouth by two smiling men in armor while a third watched. You kind of get the idea what is likely to happen next.

Er. Um. Grimdark in an RPG is fine with me. I have no issues with 'dark' plots or storylines, including torture, murder, genocide, violence and rape - if it's a useful part of the plot and if it forwards the story. But reading the text that accompanies the image, there's nothing in it that a "violation is imminent" picture would be related to. So, why? The message I'm getting from this encapsulation of the Harn system is that men are the fighters and women are NPC background. Or fodder for violent use.

This one would get a pass from me if the "oh look, evil armored soldiers physically abusing a terrified peasant woman" depiction actually illustrated anything that they were writing in the source material. It didn't, so it doesn't. That's a fail, Harn. Showing realistic pictures of bad, evil people doing bad, evil things is one thing, if it seriously supports the storyline and world background. Like, if they were giving background for a group of really Bad!Evil people to show just how Bad!Evil they were. Maybe. But random female victimization picture for apparently no reason I can find in the text? Facepalm.

The rest of the freebies either had no pictures at all or contained images of women literally in bikinis with bared midriff and thighs and decorative "armor" that covered very little, while fighting. The offenders were:

Cosmic Patrol quick start rules: The Kahn Protocol. Really, guys? 30's era one piece swim suits are not armor. They're just not. Wearing a Busby Berkeley outfit to an axe fight is so much Not A Good Idea. Facepalm.

Worst offender: Dungeon Crawl Classics by Goodman Games. There are seven images in total in this book, including the cover, that contain people. The rest are maps, a skull, a house, abstract decor, non gendered monsters, etc. Five of those images show women who are fighting or adventuring with bare cleavage, midriff, thighs, etc. No woman depicted in this sourcebook was in normal, practical or just non revealing clothing.

Seriously, who wears spiky "armor" just on one arm, carries a shield in the other, then goes to fight monsters in a miniskirt and bra? Because that is actually what she is doing. The guy next to her getting dumped off the pier is in full plate mail; the guy in front of her appears to be in some kind of robe, or possibly a tight shirt with loose sleeves and textured pants. On the bright side, she's the only one not yet getting her butt kicked by the fish-thing monster, but I think that's probably because it's laughing too hard at how she's dressed.

Next page, take one point for racial diversity because she isn't lily-white, but for sheesh sake, strapping on a sword and fighting with a thin strip of cloth tied off around your breasts and a highly impractical harem-girl style dangling cloth strip covering your hoo-hah while leaving hips, thighs, midriff and everything else bare? Really? Are you not going to a) trip on those fluttering cloth strips, b) end up naked when somebody else steps on them, and c) GET FREAKING KILLED?

Couple more pages over, there's a male dwarf in a tabard. At least he's as crappily armored as she is in this picture. She's in some kind of superhero-looking leotard getup with another one of those "dangling strips of cloth over the hoo-hah" things going on, leaving her hips and thighs bare. In fairness, his thighs are showing too, but they aren't the focus nearly as much as her bare bits are. Facepalm.

Back cover, the group of four adventurers. One big guy is in armor, two men are in cloaks and robes, but the woman has a peek-a-boo cleavage hole in her hooded upper garment, and no pants. Seriously, no pants. The mace she's wearing at her belt can NOT be comfortable on her bare thigh.

Who the hell goes adventuring with no pants? I am facepalming. So. Hard.

This was an accurate and complete representation of all of the RPG source material I was handed today in the Free RPG Day swag bag at the store I went to. I didn't choose any of it, so there's no personal bias.


As I edited into a post above, I submit that the casual attitude towards extreme violence that is typical of RPG's and the gamers is not a draw for them.
I don't mean to be insulting, but, um, do you actually know any female gamers?
 
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Felon

First Post
Seriously, who wears spiky "armor" just on one arm, carries a shield in the other, then goes to fight monsters in a miniskirt and bra?
I've seen tons of characters fighting in outlandish outfits with impossible weapons. Outlandishness and impossibility were probably what they were going for. Something, y'know...fantastic?

But on the whole, it sounds like you were able to find products that fell within your tolerance levels. That's reaffirming. Ideally, everyone can find something that appeals to them.

I don't mean to be insulting, but, um, do you actually know any female gamers?
I think I already fielded that one, but more to the point, I've known plenty of females.

I've played lots of MMO's, and have been gaming plenty long. I've seen all types of gamers. Yes, female gamers can be cold-blooded or hot-blooded, but I'm not talking about the existing female gamers. I'm talking about this hypothetical untapped pool of women that are supposedly shunning gaming because they feel excluded.
 
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TanithT

First Post
And there's been no small amount of wrongdoing committed by those who felt they were the appropriate "moral barometer" for everyone around them. Their convictions about what they think of as decent and proper trumped other people's right to self-determination. D&D, Harry Potter, and the video game industry have all been targeted by those who deemed themselves the arbiters of morality and good taste.

I agree completely. For the most part, sexual 'morality' is stupid, and hateful, and all about limiting the rights of consenting adults to do what they choose with their bodies. I think that is quite horrible.

Absolutely none of what I have been saying is about sexual morality. None of it. Zero. Seriously. I very much support sexual rights and respect for the choices of all consenting adults of all genders and orientations. I don't believe there is ever any justification for getting between two (or more) consenting adults and limiting their sexual behavior. Period. End of sentence. The people who try to do this are wrong and evil and what they do seriously hurts my LGBT friends.

I am pro porn and pro sex industry - if you own it, you have the absolute right to rent it, and anyone who says boo to that or decides it means you should be shamed or harassed or treated poorly is a cretin who does not respect other people's rights over their own bodies. I don't have an issue with women (or men) choosing to be models, or strippers or escorts or prostitutes for that matter. Their bodies, their choices, end of story.

My issue with the generalized pornification of female images in RPG source material, games and comic books is not a "sexual morality" issue in any way, shape or form. The issue is one of consent, and social privilege, and social exclusion.

Porn isn't the problem. Porn is good, porn is great, everyone should enjoy having it and making it in the flavor they like best. There are lots of places you can have porn - after all, isn't that what the Internet is for? The problem is that there are social consequences when you pornify mass market RPG source material in a way that excludes heterosexual women from being the consumers and primarily depicts them as the objects of consumption.

I don't actually care if that is your personal taste and you have a bunch of that in your porn stash. Please enjoy it there. But is it really too much to ask that it not be the default setting for female characters in my RPG source material? Especially when it makes them look stupid? The gratuitous eye candy doesn't usually add anything to the storyline, the characters, the world background or the campaign, and it has the potential to take a lot away.

Language that diminishes, trivializes or condescends to women can also take a lot away, and make women feel really uncomfortable about participating. So I'm hoping that FableStream will take the hint and become a better model for showing actual respect for the women who want to be involved in the hobby, or with their project.
 

Felon

First Post
I don't actually care if that is your personal taste and you have a bunch of that in your porn stash. Please enjoy it there. But is it really too much to ask that it not be the default setting for female characters in my RPG source material? Especially when it makes them look stupid? The gratuitous eye candy doesn't usually add anything to the storyline, the characters, the world background or the campaign, and it has the potential to take a lot away.
"The default setting"?

Do you really that in the here-and-now, it's the default setting in RPG's?

I was just going through my D&D minis the other day, and noticing how pretty much all the female characters were well-atired. And there's a lot of'em too. I guess that's one reason to wish I had some femgamers at my table.
 

TanithT

First Post
I've seen tons of characters fighting in outlandish outfits with impossible weapons. Outlandishness and impossibility were probably what they were going for. Something, y'know...fantastic?

If the guys in these books were wearing nothing but dangly tassles on their wing-wongs while fighting monsters, this would be a believable argument. That wasn't what was happening, though. With the exception of the one male drow image, the men were in normal clothes for the environment or in solid, practical armor.


But on the whole, it sounds like you were able to find products that fell within your tolerance levels. That's reaffirming. Ideally, everyone can find something that appeals to them.

Yes, that was pretty cool. It doesn't change the fact that if I walk into a store and pick random gaming material, I'm going to spend a lot of time being reminded that I am not the intended market here. And facepalming.


I think I already fielded that one, but more to the point, I've known plenty of females.

So have I. I'm not sure I know any female gamers who shy away from in-character violence, even if they aren't the serial killer type for reals. Which I hope your male gamers are not, either. Because let's face it, adventurers are basically murder hobos, and you can't really tell a good story without conflict. Which is, quite often, most efficiently and productively solved with a bit of the old ultra-violence, as my droogs might say. That's generally where all PC's go sooner rather than later in my experience, regardless of who's playing them.
 

TanithT

First Post
Do you really that in the here-and-now, it's the default setting in RPG's?

I think that every time I browse RPG source material, I'm going to be forcibly reminded by a nontrivial percentage of what I see that I am not its intended market. And that women are supposed to prioritize looking hot over minor details like not dying, because lingerie has a really sucky armor class.

I appreciate it a lot when I see material that doesn't make me facepalm, and I do see some of it, certainly more now than ten years ago. It's very refreshing. It is still very much a part of my everyday experience as a female gamer to know that any source material I look at has a pretty good chance of sending messages like this. And they aren't really comfortable or welcoming messages for me.
 

TanithT

First Post
I've played lots of MMO's, and have been gaming plenty long. I've seen all types of gamers. Yes, female gamers can be cold-blooded or hot-blooded, but I'm not talking about the existing female gamers. I'm talking about this hypothetical untapped pool of women that are supposedly shunning gaming because they feel excluded.

Like a lot of my female friends, when I play on an MMO, I don't actually fess up to being female. There's no point in it when all it gets you is harassment. You might actually be surprised who in your party is female IRL, even if they're playing the big tank dude. Yes, this can still work if your MMO does voice. I can pretty passably pitch my voice male, and voice changers are easily buyable online for the ladies who can't. :D

I don't really have any good answers about your hypothetical pool of women who don't game because they got turned off by what they perceived to be a sexist atmosphere, but maybe this will offer a small bit of anecdotal insight.

I'm largely retired from the con circuit and the SCA now for lack of time, and because it is bloody depressing that I can't fight any more, but I used to do a LOT of fannish events. Filk cons, gaming cons, relax-a-cons, literary cons, larps, SCA wars and feasts, Faires, etc. I got to know folks in a lot of different areas of fandom. Sometimes while I was at a different kind of event at a big con I'd try to recruit someone who seemed cool for the next game I had scheduled. I had a hell of a lot more luck with men than with women.

This is an adapted summary of multiple conversations I have actually had with fannish women who strongly rejected gaming. The details varied of course, as does my memory, but the essential core of it is here.

"Hey, it's been fun chatting, but I'm scheduled to run a Serenity game in half an hour - do you play? You're welcome to join us."

"No, I don't game, sorry."

"Wanna walk down there with me so we can finish what we were talking about while I set up?"

"I don't like to go in the gaming room."

"Why not? You're at DragonCon, you're dressed up like steampunk Kaylee, and you were just at the science fiction writer's workshop asking about how to get more creative ideas for your writing. Firefly games are cool."

"Those guys give me the creeps. I don't want to go in there."

This is not a "normal" woman I'm getting this from, because I don't bother recruiting mundanes. This is someone at a convention who is significantly active in a fandom in some way, and who knows perfectly well what gaming is. In fact she's probably done it before, and will say so - she just doesn't want to do it again.

I didn't record statistics, I didn't take numbers, and since these were casual recruitment conversations at busy conventions, I mostly didn't bother asking any further what the specific issues were and why going in the gaming room seemed to be a definite "ew, I don't go in there" for a not overwhelmingly huge but definitely significant percentage of fannish women. Seriously, the number of times I have heard women say that the gaming room is no-go territory for them is nontrivial. Why this is exactly, I can not say. But, it is.

Some of it may be just the social stereotypes against gamers that seem to operate even inside of fandom, but I don't actually know. I don't have anything more concrete than this, or any better answers.
 

Elf Witch

First Post
Call me old-fashioned, but I'm accustomed to someone producing a product before I boycott it.

Lets think, just for a moment, that maybe the folks at FableStreams true to their word. Maybe, just maybe, they really are after Felicia Day and Sarah Darkmagic, rather than Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton. We really can't at least wait long enough for them to actually put up or shut up?

Someone said earlier this looked like a press release written by a hype company and not a gaming company. Maybe I'm unique as the only person here to have ever spoken poorly chosen words or to have had someone say something really dumb on my behalf. But are we really going to start going all Minority Report when these people haven't even produced anything yet?

A company needs to be aware that their advertising can turn people off no matter how good the product is.

I was a fan of Dolce and Gabana especially their perfume until they did the gang rape ad. The fact that they thought it was okay that a beautiful woman was being held down by a so hot guy with other hot guys waiting around for their turn was in any way a good idea made me say nope I will not support a company that insensitive.

This whole hot gamer chick thing has struck a huge nerve in me so it would take a lot for me to want to look at the game.

I am not saying I wouldn't but at this point I am like meh not interested.
 

Elf Witch

First Post
Really?? U being a male I guess you know what is right or wrong as well? ur opinion just as mine, was my own. You assume and u go off ur opinion or the opinion of a few others. what about those girls who are really looking forward to this? Are they wrong for liking the idea of getting to be apart of it? Are models wrong for liking how they look and for making a living off of modeling? just because u dont like it doesnt me it is wrong I dont think that it is the only thing that should make or break something, and because we are in an RPG forum and talking about RPGs lets focus on that whether it has girls on the cover of it or not if it sucks as an RPG it suxs, and it wont sell but if it actually has good content and is fun to play then the game will stick around and transend it's, as you put it "sexism" what is sexism to you? Because to me its seperating and belittling women, it is taking advantage of women? Because this company isnt taking advantage of anyone it is offering these women a chance to dress as and go around the country doing magazines, photo shoots and being apart of a "possible" new RPG. all the girls I met going for it did not feel taken advantage of. In fact my friend hasnt shut up about it... oh and her boyfriend is really big about sexism and people screwing her over and he supports this completely. So let me ask you who are you as a man to call it wrong? like it or not its what they are doing, like it or not the girls modeling wanted to do it. Why get upset about it? just try the game (or not) and then go heck no or wow this game wasnt bad. All RPGs have women dressed in images wearing small articles or tight fitting clothes, and women go to Anime, comic, and RPG cons as characters in these outfits... And this upsets you? I am no women but I am not going to bash something that i see people excited about possibly being apart of it due to my own personal feelings. and that is my feelings . :D

First of all could you please use the English language here and spell out words instead of text speakusing also paragraphs are your friend I found this nearly impossible to read.

The fact that you think it hunky dory that all RPGs have woman dressed in scanty clothes and that is okay is really an issue. A lot of us both men and woman have said we would rather see less cheesecake and beefcake and more art that really makes these people look like adventurers.

As a female gamer it matters to me and let me tell you I have had female friends refuse to even consider gaming because that artwork says woman are not to be taken seriously and that the product is marketed to horny teen age boys.

If woman want to model and pose for Playboy more power to them it is there life and body if girls want to run around as Vampirella at cons that is there choice.

And it my choice not to buy a product and to speak out and say why.
 
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