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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by pauljathome View Post
    But I'd REALLY like to think that they're the very unusual outliers. I've been gaming since 1979 and I've NEVER seen anything even approximating that occur. Not in all male groups, not in mixed groups. Never.
    No. I've seen similar incidents, and walked away from a few gaming tables at conventions because of them.

    Not all guys who game are that creepy, but a nontrivial percentage of them, enough to affect public perception of our hobby, really are.


    Admittedly, I came into gaming in university and almost all of my gaming has been with adults. Maybe that made a difference. Maybe I've been lucky. Maybe there are regional elements involved.
    Age is definitely a factor, though some of the genuinely scariest offenders - the ones I actually for-real did not feel safe around after they made certain remarks and used certain language to refer to in-game rape - were adult men. Regional, not so sure; I grew up on the West Coast, am now on the East Coast, and I used to travel quite a bit to hit as many Worldcons and Nasfics as I could.

 

  • #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by fablestreams View Post
    Compared to many established and well known RPGs, comic books, movies, TV commercials, video game covers, etc, etc, etc. The women of Fable Streams think our art is pretty tame, yes.

    XoXo
    So because other companies do it it makes it okay for you to do it as well even if your art work is not quite so bad.

    You could have put those woman in less reveling clothes, less cleavage and kept the hair and the facial features and they still would have looked pretty.
    Favorite line heard at the table "I am killing to subdue" Kavo the Dwarf

  • #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by pauljathome View Post
    It is absolutely disgusting that any of these things occurred. And there is absolutely no excuse for it happening.

    But I'd REALLY like to think that they're the very unusual outliers. I've been gaming since 1979 and I've NEVER seen anything even approximating that occur. Not in all male groups, not in mixed groups. Never.

    I'm quite sure that more subtle sexism has occurred in games that I've played in (a lot of it doubtless without my noticing in). But nothing at that level

    Admittedly, I came into gaming in university and almost all of my gaming has been with adults. Maybe that made a difference. Maybe I've been lucky. Maybe there are regional elements involved.
    There was a thread on Astrid's on the WOTC forums about creepy behavior and a lot of woman and some men had stories about it. And they were from all over.

    I have played at a lot of con including Worldcons and I have seen it and most of the creepy behavior was not teens but grown men who should know better.

    There are men out there who treat woman like crap who view us as here only to serve them. That some how we are not truly human beings with feelings, dreams of our own.

    It is one thing if a guy finds you desirable as well as smart, funny and enjoys spending time with you outside of bed. But it is really degrading if a guy only views you as something to have sex with no different than a blow up doll.

    I am well aware that men like looking at sexy woman that a man's sex drive is more visual than a woman. And that is biology and perfectly fine. And that is why there are publications that cater to that.

    But most people don't play RPGs to be sexually stimulated so why the need for sexually stimulating art.

    Most of this is not in answer to pauljathome post. It just came to my mind as I was answering him.
    Favorite line heard at the table "I am killing to subdue" Kavo the Dwarf

  • #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elf Witch View Post
    You could have put those woman in less reveling clothes, less cleavage and kept the hair and the facial features and they still would have looked pretty.
    In the actual campaign material source images, where you are depicting female PC's and NPC's in order to flesh out character and world background, and they are fighting monsters and adventuring in hostile environments and otherwise doing the same exact stuff as the male adventurers? They should be wearing pretty much the same equipment, too. Because it's really, really stupid for them not to be.

    The issue here is not "porn is bad", but "please don't make all the women in your world look like fashion plate bimbos who would be utterly incapable of defending themselves or of surviving the dungeon." Lingerie and prom dresses have a really sucky armor class. You wear them in the bedroom or the ballroom, not on the battlefield.

    In any other material you want to produce like pin-up calendars, candid art of your character while she is in her bedroom relaxing or getting busy with other characters? Hey, have fun with that. That's what it's for. It's not stupid or demeaning or ridiculous in that context, and you don't send the message that this is all women that are good for and this is the only way a female character can be depicted. Because porn is fun, and it's okay for adults to have some. Nothing wrong there.

    Fighting monsters in your underwear? With no pants? In a chainmail bikini? In a low-cut prom dress? That's stupid. And that's where it becomes obvious that the women in your world are useless for anything except being bimbos, because they sure as hell aren't getting anything else done while they are dressed like that. In a situation where you're supposed to be depicting them as actors and doers, as strong characters who have skills and strength and powers and spells, you are depicting them as sex objects whose primary asset is how they look. In fact they clearly care more about how they look than about minor details like actually getting through the adventure alive.

    There's definitely a time and a place to dress up (or take it all off) and look sexy when you want to. But if your female characters never stop doing that long enough to do anything else, even when it is is suicidally stupid, it really detracts from them as characters.

    It is maybe slightly more excusable if all of the men are dressed the same way, because then it's obvious that realism has flown totally out the window and you're depicting everybody romping around the fantasy landscape half-nekkid or in kinky costumes. Because it's fun, not because it's realistic. It's still stupid, but it's not targeting only one gender as being the stupid ones.

    But if the women are portrayed as pin-up types who are dressed fashionably but foolishly for adventuring, while the men are in full armor and sensible clothes, please consider the message you're sending about their respective roles. It isn't a healthy one.

    It only gets worse, or at least more obvious what you're doing, if you also use diminishing language to refer to the actual women whom you are inviting to participate. Please don't, FableStream. Thank you.
    Last edited by TanithT; Monday, 18th June, 2012 at 12:20 AM.

  • #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elf Witch View Post
    There was a thread on Astrid's on the WOTC forums about creepy behavior and a lot of woman and some men had stories about it. And they were from all over.

    I have played at a lot of con including Worldcons and I have seen it and most of the creepy behavior was not teens but grown men who should know better.

    There are men out there who treat woman like crap who view us as here only to serve them. That some how we are not truly human beings with feelings, dreams of our own.
    I played in one group when I was a teenager where the guys flat out began describing how they were feeling up the barmaids, whose main character trait appeared to be "they have big boobs." I left before they started describing actual intercourse. Had that been my introduction to gaming, it would have been the last time I played.

    In my early twenties I played a game at a con where we played pregens, and of course I got saddled with the lone female character, since I was the only woman at the table. Now, the premise of this game was that the characters were evil, but worked together to overthrow the good guys. That fell apart about 15 minutes into the adventure when the male players all began laughing about how their characters were going to gang rape my character - and then proceeded to roll to see if they could do it. I left that table in a damn hurry.

    These are not the only experiences of disrespect and skeeviness that I've had, just the two I'm using to emphasise the point that behavior like this isn't really all that unusual, nor is it confined to the US. If there are women gamers who don't have stories like the ones described in this thread, I haven't met them.

  • #126
    Quote Originally Posted by K. Amaloo View Post
    Feeling unwelcome in your own hobby so that the men can be pleased is an unpleasant thing. One poster argued against TanithT's analogy of the hobby as a restaurant by saying, "if you don't like the restaurant, find a different one." I believe TanithT wasn't referring to this particular RPG with her analogy, but to the hobby as a whole. I'd like to think that person wasn't telling us to get out of the entire hobby if it makes us feel unwelcome?
    I am the poster you are referring too (post #67 ).

    I'm sorry, but the idea that the whole hobby is not "serving one kind" (those were Tanith's words) would be preposterous. The hobby is large, comprised of fans, professionals, different products, game shops, etc... and there's no active attempt to prevent people from a specific race, color, creed, gender to participate.

    It's there for anyone to pick what they like, thus my comment that if you don't like what's on the menu, you pick another group, RPG, etc...

    It should be said that one of the most amazing aspect of tabletop roleplaying is how empowering it is for the end user. Especially in the internet age, there's just no excuse. You can pick up from a variety of games (even some generic ones which are absolutely 100% gender neutral), make up your storie and adventures, form a group of like-minded individuals to roleplay with.

    What you're saying is different from Tanith. You're saying the hobby doesn't make you feel welcome. I can empathize with that but that's a rather vague statement. There are crappy games and hobby shops out there. And yeah, it makes me cringe when I hear certain stories about creepy gamers (those stories happen to guys too, you know).

    But there's tons of great games. And tons of ways to personalize this experience even more. You can play any kind of adventures you want. There are hobby shops that are respectful.

    And most of all, there's tons of cool people playing those games or just waiting for someone to show them how to play.

    So, I can sympathize that you're not feeling welcome but I can't really empathize. Because the issues you speak of, I just don't see them as far as the hobby is concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by K. Amaloo View Post
    Don't you want to see more women at your tables?
    There's already been plenty of girls and women at my table. But really, I couldn't care less whether the people I play with have a penis or a vagina. I just want to be with cool people and for all of us to have a great time. And that's what happens in our case.

    None of that stuff about not serving one's kind.

  • #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Consonant Dude View Post
    I'm sorry, but the idea that the whole hobby is not "serving one kind" (those were Tanith's words) would be preposterous. The hobby is large, comprised of fans, professionals, different products, game shops, etc... and there's no active attempt to prevent people from a specific race, color, creed, gender to participate.
    I'm gonna cross reference over here, and quote/repost myself a little, cuz it's relevant.

    On Free RPG Day, I went and got a swag bag of modules, maps and gaming supplements from my local gaming store. It was also a good chance to check out the place, since I recently moved and hadn't had a chance to yet. I just took the bag provided; I did not add or subtract anything based on personal choice. I think we can call this a good selection of modern (specifically published for yesterday's event) promotional material from RPG companies, representative of what is out there on the market today.

    My summary of all the images in all of that material is here.

    Overall, do you think a woman looking at the contents of the Free RPG Day swag bag will feel like she is entirely welcome or well represented as an actively participating part of this subculture?

    It's certainly true that we have the ability to scan through all this material, keep the good stuff and the neutral stuff and toss the creepy stuff in the trash or just not buy it. But the question is whether the good stuff is good enough to outweigh the discomfort factor of having to look through the not so good stuff to get there.

    Because we don't have a choice. Literally don't. Any visit I make to a gaming store to pick up and browse through random RPG source material that I might be interested in has a really, really high percentage chance of including depictions that tell me women are not players or characters, they're cheesecake whose main role in the game is for the guys to enjoy.

    If I spend enough time at the gaming store sorting through enough books, I will certainly find some that have pretty rockin' depictions of female characters that are cool and powerful and inspiring and totally work for me. But guess what I gotta do in order to find that stuff. I have to look through a lot of material that tells me that as a woman, I am not welcome and not represented in the hobby, at least not as an active participant. I am not the target market, I am not the intended audience, and my gender doesn't exist in the game except as an NPC prop. Or as cheesecake for the real gamers to rest their eyes on so the game is more fun for them. Even if being cheesecake takes away from the depiction of the woman as a functional character as opposed to being strictly an ornamental prop.

    And for some guys - not all, but definitely some - this carries over onto the gaming table, and I have a really, really bad experience. Seriously, I love gaming. But I game a lot less than I'd really like to, and not just because I'm busier. I am generally not super eager to browse new material or to go to gaming stores, because I tend to have about as many bad experiences as good ones. I am much more reluctant to play with gamers I don't already know personally. I've just had too many bad experiences, and the cost-benefit ratio for me has dwindled to the point that I very rarely game at conventions any more. It's not worth driving for hours, spending a ton of money, signing up for a game that looks good, then sitting down at a table to a really ugly experience that I have to walk away from. Yes, I've been the target of "I'm totally gonna rape your character, does she have big boobs, is she naked, what is she wearing, huh huh" thing, too. It makes the game No Fun, even if it is only supposed to be a joke.

    That kind of thing has happened too many times, and while it hasn't driven me entirely out of the hobby, it's definitely sent me to the fringes of it where I only game with my friends and rarely bother even looking at new material or talking to gamers I don't know, because, what's the point - chances are too good it will only result in facepalming and no fun for me.

    Oh, and gaming stores. A copy of [ame="http://www.amazon.com/The-Slayers-Guide-Female-Gamers/dp/1903980488"]this book[/ame] was on display on the countertop in the store I went to for Free RPG Day. I read through it after picking up my swag, because it was right there while I was waiting to check out. It made me feel so thoroughly alienated, creeped out, objectified and insulted that I honestly never want to go back there. I get that it's just one book out of hundreds in the store, but given that they chose to position it prominently on the front counter, it's pretty clear that they stand behind it and think it's normal, acceptable, true, useful or funny. Or all of the above.

    I'm not really interested in censoring other people's views or their sense of humor. They can publish that stuff if they want to; book banning is evil, even if you don't like the book's contents. But if you go into a place and people are saying horrible things and making horrible jokes about your group, it is your right to never go back there because it is not a comfortable or welcoming environment for you. I am exercising it, and I won't be returning to that store, ever.

    There's enough people in my personal social circle who are cooler than this, so I can still game. Sometimes. But the more I think about it, the more I have to admit that I am pretty much in the category of women who have been largely chased out of the hobby.
    Last edited by TanithT; Sunday, 17th June, 2012 at 10:44 PM.

  • #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    2) Those that do not feel that this is an issue are - in my opinion, which is far from unique - part of the problem. We're talking about a general culture which factually discourages female participation: our hobby is dominated by white, heterosexual males.
    Since this was in response to my post... I'm curious. Are you saying I'm "part of the problem"? Cause, you don't even know me.

    It is not a fact that there is a general culture which discourages female participation. I'm sorry, that's just your interpretation. The fact that a hobby, activity, pursuit is dominated by a segment of the population does not factually proves that there is discouragement or discrimination at work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    The percentage of female members of our hobby is terrible low, and we hear time and time again both here on EN World and elsewhere as to why that is.
    I hear all the time why folks (whatver their) don't want to try roleplaying. And you know what they say?

    They prefer doing something else.

    It's really that simple for an overwhelming majority of folks, whether they are male or female.

    Since the dawn of the hobby, people have been asking why aren't there more females, or why aren't there more roleplayers in general.

    Sometimes there really is no nefarious plot going on. Some people don't want to sit around a table and pretend to be elves. And that's OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    Sure, it's better than it was. But that doesn't mean it can't be better. And the day when the average gaming group actually represents the diversity of our population is going to be a good day.
    This quote explains better than anything why we see things differently.

    Equal opportunity and equal representation are two very different concepts. Over and over again, your argumentation seems to boil down to a lack of equal opportunity by pointing out to a lack of equal representation.

    People shouldn't be discriminated against. Nothing should prevent you from doing whatever it is you want to be doing. However, it doesn't mean something's automatically wrong because in some field, hobby, etc... the diversity does not map out with the demographic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    the fact that people are actually willing to argue against gender equality surprises me. Who wouldn't want to encourage half the population to partipate in their hobby?
    Who did that? I hope you're not referring to me. I never argued against gender equality, never will. And I encourage anybody to participate in the hobby, not just half the population.

    But see, that's the thing... some people will just prefer doing something else. It's not that much of an issue. I have a few theories on why things are this way (and it's certainly not gender-related IMO) but that would be for another thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    When that half is telling us repeatedly over a period of years that they feel excluded, who wouldn't listen?
    This half? What half? As I said, people not interested in this hobby mostly say they'd rather do something else than sit around a table and roleplay.

    That's factual.

  • #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by TanithT View Post
    In the actual campaign material source images, where you are depicting female PC's and NPC's in order to flesh out character and world background, and they are fighting monsters and adventuring in hostile environments and otherwise doing the same exact stuff as the male adventurers? They should be wearing pretty much the same equipment, too. Because it's really, really stupid for them not to be.

    The issue here is not "porn is bad", but "please don't make all the women in your world look like fashion plate bimbos who would be utterly incapable of defending themselves or of surviving the dungeon." Lingerie and prom dresses have a really sucky armor class. You wear them in the bedroom or the ballroom, not on the battlefield.

    In any other material you want to produce like pin-up calendars, candid art of your character while she is in her bedroom relaxing or getting busy with other characters? Hey, have fun with that. That's what it's for. It's not stupid or demeaning or ridiculous in that context, and you don't send the message that this is all women that are good for and this is the only way a female character can be depicted. Because porn is fun, and it's okay for adults to have some. Nothing wrong there.

    Fighting monsters in your underwear? With no pants? In a chainmail bikini? In a low-cut prom dress? That's stupid. And that's where it becomes obvious that the women in your world are useless for anything except being bimbos, because they sure as hell aren't getting anything else done while they are dressed like that. In a situation where you're supposed to be depicting them as actors and doers, as strong characters who have skills and strength and powers and spells, you are depicting them as sex objects whose primary asset is how they look. In fact they clearly care more about how they look than about minor details like actually getting through the adventure alive.

    There's definitely a time and a place to dress up (or take it all off) and look sexy when you want to. But if your female characters never stop doing that long enough to do anything else, even when it is is suicidally stupid, it really detracts from them as characters.

    It is maybe slightly more excusable if all of the men are dressed the same way, because then it's obvious that realism has flown totally out the window and you're depicting everybody romping around the fantasy landscape half-nekkid or in kinky costumes. Because it's fun, not because it's realistic. It's still stupid, but it's not targeting only one gender as being the stupid ones.

    But if the women are portrayed as pin-up types who are dressed fashionably but foolishly for adventuring, while the men are in full armor and sensible clothes, please consider the message you're sending about their respective roles. It isn't a healthy one.

    It only gets worse, or at least more obvious what you're doing, if you also use diminishing language to refer to the actual women whom you are inviting to participate. Please don't. Thank you.
    Are you responding to something I said or is this just overall? Because it feels like you are preaching to the choir here.

    If those woman are magic users they could well be dressed in flowing robes and no armor. There is nothing wrong with looking attractive and being dressed right for combat. I have played a sorcerer who was very powerful but liked pretty things and spent gold on the finest velvets and silks. But in combat she always had her protections up and she was not dressed like a bimbo getting ready to do a pole dance.

    I would like to say something here I have noticed a lot of woman saying that they don't wear make up and for RPGs they dress down and there is nothing wrong with that. My best friend and roomie does not. I don't I wear make up and I like to look pulled together. And there is nothing wrong with that either. Over the years I have met at cons some pretty militant anti make up woman who really look down on woman like me who enjoy wearing make up and fussing with their hair. Putting woman like us down for doing that is just as bad getting put down for those who don't. I take my gaming as serious as they do. I am just as much a geek even if I am a geek in lipstick.

    I don't think there is anything wrong with having art showing pretty people. What makes me roll my eyes is the peak a boo armor or the barely dressed magic user.
    Favorite line heard at the table "I am killing to subdue" Kavo the Dwarf

  • #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDNash View Post
    @Stacie GmrGrl
    People giving you problems over that is just wrong. I know that I would never judge you for that, and I'd kick out any player of mine who would give you trouble. I don't know why GMs, or more generally, PEOPLE in general allow that sort of discrimination to fly.
    Thank you.

    It's this society, it still has a ways to go. It's learning, and I dare say overall It's learning fast now, that there are people who are just different, with different views, and different orientations and desires.

    I have no idea if this will have any bearing on this conversation but it's about the topic of gender, and how over the years I have witnessed gender discrimination, and an influence of it is the artwork... not the entire influence, because it's mainly our society and how people are educated that's the real problem... but it does play a part in influencing perceptions within a rpg, and how others can respond to such influences.

    Also...I love gaming, especially roleplaying games...have been playing and reading, mainly reading...since 90. I feel they can be a great source of inspiration and are very fun, and helpful for being a source of creativity and imagination.

    Regarding this hobby of ours, I have the unique perspective of being a woman who, whether it's unfortunate OR fortunate (which so far remains to be seen), was raised male, for that is the body I was born into. With this came expectations, influences, and assumed stereotypes from the many other people, who decided for me what I SHOULD be like.

    In gaming, I saw men, mainly heterosexual males, while claiming they wanted more women to play...these same guys had no social graces regarding women... these pictures that many women on here find sexist...those pictures, while art, did influence a lot of how my gamer associates at the time treated women, both in the game and what few decided to try to play...and many never came back after trying to play. This was very prevalent in the late 80s and through the 90s, and I have seen things change, to an extent... just during the last few years.

    I am not saying all guys are like this...and I am not aiming anything I say at a single target or person.

    This society, while many strides twards gender equality have happened... This is a society where sex sells... and within this society we are quite bombarded from an early age what is 'supposedly acceptable in society' and what is not. Or what is expected, or not. In this society of sex sells, porn has been an influence of this. I love porn, for what it is. As a woman I think it's a wonderful outlet for fantasy and for adults...but I think it does alter a persons attitudes towards others... if a person isn't fully aware they can watch it and take what they see and it can alter a persons view of others. It can cause people to objectify others, and it should not be brought into rpgs.

    The two, IMO, should not mix. But, as the Book of Erotic Fantasy was published... it did mix. To an extent.

    As a woman...I have seen guys at the table talk down to women, treat them like they don't know anything about gaming... tell a woman they don't know how to roleplay at all, or that their characters were doing stupid things because it wasn't what they would do... I have seen women leave this hobby because many guys just don't know how to act around women. They just don't. I am not saying all men are like this... but many were, and I am sure it still happens.

    Now that I am a woman, I HAVE been on the receiving end of this behavior, but that could be also because I am a transsexual woman...and not very many people are educated in people who are gender different. So, currently I have received the double whammy of discrimination in this society... I have had my voice at the game table discounted for being a woman... but it's happened to me by both men and women.

    the last group I was in I only stayed for two sessions, because a guy called me "an It"...and the DM laughed. The other girl there defended me, and another guy then told her she didn't know anything. She quit to. She also stopped playing.

    I haven't actually played a tabletop game, at a table, in over a year because of it...and
    because of it I have debated leaving the hobby altogether. Any gaming I do is online,
    through Pbp.

    I hope I didn't break any rules in this posting... I certainly meant no insult to men, because I have gamed with a few guys who were pretty cool and accepted women as gamers... seemed to be more accepted in White Wolf games than D&D.

    I rambled... thank you for reading, and hugs to all the beautiful people. (was listening to Marilyn Manson at the time of this writing. )

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