New RPG Company Casting All Women for Genesys

Elf Witch · Jun 17, 2012

Consonant Dude said:
This half? What half? As I said, people not interested in this hobby mostly say they'd rather do something else than sit around a table and roleplay.

That's factual.

Have you missed the people telling you about female gamers who have left the hobby because of dealing with misogynist behavior from fellow male gamers?

I have read on EnWorld guys who defend not allowing woman at their table because woman bring nothing but drama. I can totally get the idea that some guys view game time as a chance to be with the boys and that is fine. But when I read statements like female gamers disrupt the game because all the guys go goofy over them so I don't want then at my table. That tends to get my back up. Woman get excluded because guys act like goofy little boys is rather unfair.

The guide to female gamers is supposed to be funny and poke fun at the stereotypical female gamer. I remember when it came out and the guys I game with had a lot of fun teasing us woman about it. So we got together and did a little stereotypical male gamer book. But it made me wonder why this book was even necessary and where was the companion to it on dealing with male gamers like cat piss man or mouth breather man?

Woman gamers get stuck with all the same stereotyping as male gamers get plus the whole female stereotype as well. We can't really change how the outside world views gamers but it would be nice if in our hobby we didn't have to deal with some of this crap we deal with.

TanithT · Jun 17, 2012

Consonant Dude said:
This half? What half? As I said, people not interested in this hobby mostly say they'd rather do something else than sit around a table and roleplay.

Depends on the demographic.

Approach random women at the mall, or the library, or your school, and ask them about gaming, and you will tend to get the following responses.

"What's Pathfinder? Is it an outdoor sport like geocaching?"

"Cthu who? Do you need a Kleenex?"

Or maybe even, "D&D? You mean, like that creepy guy on Big Bang Theory? Eww."

Or once you explain gaming as interactive fantasy storytelling to the ones who have only a vague idea of what gaming is, you might get, "Sorry, that doesn't sound like my kind of thing." And that's legit; mundanes aren't necessarily gamers or fantasy/sci-fi readers, because it's not everybody's cup of tea.

That's the typical mundane response. I've never bothered talking about gaming or recruiting mundanes for games, because, why.

I did spend a fair bit of time shilling for gamers to fill time slots in the non gaming areas of large conventions, and I got mostly two types of responses. The most common from both men and women was, "Oh cool, but I'm doing a panel on storm trooper armor modeling/Harry Potter fandom/robotics/swordplay/WoW during that game, sorry."

Not the most common but definitely not an uncommon response from women was "I don't go in the gaming room." Seriously, I heard a ton of that. At DragonCon, there were women who said they took detours around the building, which is a lot of extra walking, so they would not have to go through the gaming area. At most conventions it's not an issue, so DC was the only place I ever heard that.

None of the fannish women had any trouble knowing what I was talking about no matter which RPG I named. They know the systems and the terminology perfectly well and I would guess that chances are decent that they've played them at least once, or read the books at least once. They may even play at home, with their friends. They definitely know the lingo. But they won't go in the gaming room at a con.

I rarely had time to ask why they felt that way in any more depth when I was shilling to fill game slots. So the only facts I can gather are a) a nontrivial number of fannish women refuse to set foot in the gaming area even when invited by another woman, and b) those same women are completely familiar with these games.

I did get responses of "Naah, not my fandom, not a gamer, I'm just here for the filking/cosplay/anime/etc" from both men and women that I would characterize as fitting your neutral description. But the clear statements of literally not feeling comfortable entering the gaming area were pretty prevalent, and were solely from women. Make of that what you will.

TanithT · Jun 17, 2012

Elf Witch said:
Are you responding to something I said or is this just overall? Because it feels like you are preaching to the choir here.

Sorry, I was directly addressing FableStreams, not you. I should have made that more clear. My apologies.

If those woman are magic users they could well be dressed in flowing robes and no armor. There is nothing wrong with looking attractive and being dressed right for combat. I have played a sorcerer who was very powerful but liked pretty things and spent gold on the finest velvets and silks. But in combat she always had her protections up and she was not dressed like a bimbo getting ready to do a pole dance.

Like I said, if the character is at a fancy ball in a city, a pretty dress is totally sensible. In the swamp while fighting dire goldfish or whatever, not so much. Because, oy, the dry cleaning bill. Do they have cantrips for that?

Or hell, if she wants to BE a pole dancer in her spare time, that's cool too. And not stupid. The trick is depicting the well rounded character AS a character, not just as OMGBEWBIES and nothing else.

Elf Witch · Jun 18, 2012

TanithT said:
Sorry, I was directly addressing FableStreams, not you. I should have made that more clear. My apologies.

Like I said, if the character is at a fancy ball in a city, a pretty dress is totally sensible. In the swamp while fighting dire goldfish or whatever, not so much. Because, oy, the dry cleaning bill. Do they have cantrips for that?

Or hell, if she wants to BE a pole dancer in her spare time, that's cool too. And not stupid. The trick is depicting the well rounded character AS a character, not just as OMGBEWBIES and nothing else.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Prestidigitation is a magic user best friend it will clean you and your belongings up.

Morrus · Jun 18, 2012

Consonant Dude said:
Since this was in response to my post... I'm curious. Are you saying I'm "part of the problem"? Cause, you don't even know me.

No. If I was saying "you are part of the problem" I'd have said "you are part of the problem". I responded to you because you asked me to.

It is not a fact that there is a general culture which discourages female participation. I'm sorry, that's just your interpretation. The fact that a hobby, activity, pursuit is dominated by a segment of the population does not factually proves that there is discouragement or discrimination at work.

It's not my interpretation. It's what women are telling us in this very thread. So yes, I believe it to be a fact. I think it would be remarkably arrogant and dismissive of me to tell these women that the environment they perceive does not exist. It would, indeed, make me a douche of the highest order.

I hear all the time why folks (whatver their) don't want to try roleplaying. And you know what they say?

They prefer doing something else.

Well, other than the women in this very thread who say otherwise. My position is that I will take them at face value. If you choose not to, you'll need to discuss that with them, not me; my position will remain one in which I believe what they're telling me about their own motivations.

I mean, how many stories do you have to hear, and how many women have to tell you that there is a problem with sexism before you'll believe them? Simply denying the problem exists is - well, at the very least - an unfortunate choice in my eyes. You could discuss it with them, you could ask for more information, you do a thousand tags - but to simply deny that the problems they say are experiencing even exist is very, very unfair.

Since the dawn of the hobby, people have been asking why aren't there more females, or why aren't there more roleplayers in general.

Yes. Yes, they have. That's the whole point.

And the women are answering. To then ignore their answers in favour of your own theory is denial at the very least.

Equal opportunity and equal representation are two very different concepts. Over and over again, your argumentation seems to boil down to a lack of equal opportunity by pointing out to a lack of equal representation.

That would be incorrect. That is not my argument. My "argument" (and it's not really one) is very, very simple: look at women are saying to you right now in this thread.

Who did that? I hope you're not referring to me. I never argued against gender equality, never will. And I encourage anybody to participate in the hobby, not just half the population.

Again, when referring to you, I wil use the word "you" or perhaps your name; I will indicate you in some manner. Allow me to assure you that replying to you does not mean I am talking about you.

pauljathome · Jun 18, 2012

K. Amaloo said:
If there are women gamers who don't have stories like the ones described in this thread, I haven't met them.

There definitely are some women gamers who don't have such stories. But the ones that I quickly canvassed play (or played) only at private games with friends (or friends of friends).

I want to be absolutely explicit that I am in no way doubting your stories. I'm just hoping (and presently failing :-() to convince myself that the problem isn't quite as bad as you say. Because if it is as bad as you say then I'm thoroughly ashamed of both my hobby and of my gender :-(.

Tanstaafl_au · Jun 18, 2012

Morrus said:
Well, there can be no argument against someone telling you how something makes them feel. I guess you could - at a stretch - argue that they're lying, and that they don't feel the way they say they do - but that would be a pretty silly, and remarkably obnoxious thing to say!

If this discussion is to have any wings, it needs to take people at face value: if the women in this thread say that's how these things make them feel, then that's how these things make them feel. I believe them.

And thus my line of opinion: I would prefer it if our hobby didn't make them feel that way. I don't think that's a controversial position to take, and I fervently hope that the majority agrees with that position. I'll certainly continue to advocate for it.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Felon · Jun 18, 2012

K. Amaloo said:
Perhaps you would care to explain how those positions I mentioned (that is, positions explaining how objectifying women is perfectly all right) are entitled to the benefit of the doubt? Would you offer them the benefit of the doubt if they were, say, arguing that slavery is all right for those same reasons? Because I'll be blunt myself: I see no argument that can reasonably be made in favor of such a thing. Tolerance of opposing viewpoints is good and well, but tolerance of sexism, like racism, is a bad idea.

I notice that you and others were quick to respond that no female gamer you've ever met has had any problem whatsoever with violence, and I get the impression that didn't even strike any of you as a disparity. You ask if I would find slavery or racism deserving of the benefit of the doubt. Well, if it's in the context of a fantasy setting where mass slaughter is harmless entertainment, then how can anything be taboo? Why is cheesecake so much more intolerable than carnage? Objectify a person for purposes of running a sword through their guts = no biggie, but objectify a person for purposes of titillation = unacceptably dehumanizing?

Personally, I like to participate in sufficiently adult campaigns where the taking of life is not regarded as a light-hearted matter, and slavery and racism are present but handled in a tasteful way. And, yes, there are idealized, often beautiful people wearing outrageous outfits and fighting with impossible weapons.

If 'that product' happens to be the entire hobby, as was MY point, then you are essentially telling me not to buy any RPGs. I await any and all explanations of how this is reasonable and fine.

I'm stuck at the part where it's somehow reasonable to deem the entire hobby to be sexist. What is that *all* RPG publishers are doing that diminishes females? Or have we completely moved on from discussing products to gaming-table behavior?

The various examples of piggish, cruel behavior at the gaming table evoke outrage and sympathy. Yeah, I want to wring those guys' necks. But are they representative of the entire hobby? When I previously stated that most gamers I've played with were selfish and peevish, you asserted that I had encountered what, in your opinion, constituted an inaccurate reflection of the whole.

Or are we talking more Tanith's lines about the depiction of women geared up in "unsensible" ways that wouldn't fly in the SCA? Not just naked flesh, but even wearing armor that accentuates their figure? Is sexuality inherently sexist?

There's a notable difference between idealized male sexuality and idealized female sexuality. The physical traits that make a guy hunk in the conventional sense--namely, height and brawn--are also those that make for a more formidable fighter. The same isn't true of women. So what do you do to address sexism? Downplay idealized women?

I'm sorry you seem to be running into such a low class of gamer, and that you seem willing to pass judgement on gamers as a whole because of them. I'm not sure what it has to do with any of my points, however.

Everyone else in this thread, of which you are certainly no exception, have shared your personal experiences and used them as the basis of forming blanket opinions, so kindly spare me your remarks about how I've passed judgment on others. I haven't passed judgment on anyone I haven't met. I specifically referred to the context of my own personal experiences.

Funny thing about anecdotal evidence. Everyone values their own highly, but it's far less valuable to others. Unless, of course, it serves to reinforce their own anecdotal evidence.

TanithT · Jun 18, 2012

Consonant Dude said:
It is not a fact that there is a general culture which discourages female participation. I'm sorry, that's just your interpretation. The fact that a hobby, activity, pursuit is dominated by a segment of the population does not factually proves that there is discouragement or discrimination at work.

You know what is really discouraging?

When multiple women say, "These are the things I have personally seen and experienced and felt. They discouraged me from gaming. I felt discriminated against." And guys who are absolutely sure that they aren't part of the problem, the ones who are claiming to be the good guys in our hobby, tell them that they're wrong. About their own experiences. That there is no such thing as discouragement or discrimination in our hobby. If women think there is, well, we're just mistaken. Or lying.

Except there's this. Right here. What you're doing.

I'm not saying that no one is allowed to disagree with me, or to hold a different opinion than I do. I have no problem with that. I am saying that if you are trying to tell me, and several other women in this thread, that we are lying or mistaken about our own personal feelings and experiences in the hobby, something is going on here that is a bit beyond your stating your own experience or your opinion. That something is pretty discouraging. I don't know whether or not it's discrimination, but it kinda feels that way.

I'm really not claiming anything here beyond my personal story. There are no deep universal truths here, just that this is what it feels like to be me. This is what I've experienced and what my perceptions are, as one gamer who is female. That's all. Your experiences and your perceptions and your opinion may be different, and that's okay. I respect that. But you don't get to tell me that mine don't exist.