New RPG Company Casting All Women for Genesys

TanithT · Jun 18, 2012

Felon said:
You ask if I would find slavery or racism deserving of the benefit of the doubt. Well, if it's in the context of a fantasy setting where mass slaughter is harmless entertainment, then how can anything be taboo? Why is cheesecake so much more intolerable than carnage? Objectify a person for purposes of running a sword through their guts = no biggie, but objectify a person for purposes of titillation = unacceptably dehumanizing?

Depends on the group you're targeting. I don't think that telling stories about elf on Orc violence is likely to push many people's hot buttons, but how about a historically accurate Huckleberry Finn/Tom Sawyer based RPG where one of the fun adventures your PC's could participate in was hunting down, whipping and collecting bounty on escaped Negro slaves?

Somehow I get the feeling that you'd run into a shortage of African-American players who wanted to game with you. Because they're going to feel personally targeted by the depiction of their representational characters in the game, even though it's historically accurate. Actually, because it's historically accurate.

I'm stuck at the part where it's somehow reasonable to deem the entire hobby to be sexist. What is that *all* RPG publishers are doing that diminishes females?

I don't think anyone has yet claimed that the entire hobby *is* sexist. It's not. But I am telling the absolute truth when I say that if I pick up a random handful of RPG source material or sit down at a random open gaming table at a convention, in my experience, my chances of running into some pretty demoralizing stuff are high enough to make me uncomfortable.

The various examples of piggish behavior at the gaming table evoke outrage and sympathy. But are they representative of the entire hobby?

In what sense? Is it fair that it only takes one or two creepy, disrespectful guys at a gaming table to make a female gamer leave? Is it 'representational' if it's only one out of the six other guys at the table who won't quit asking how big her character's boobs are and if he can roll to have sex with her? By the numbers it's not, but she's leaving anyway, and she might not want to come back.

Or are we talking more Tanith's lines about the depiction of women geared up in "unsensible" ways that wouldn't fly in the SCA? Not just naked flesh, but having breasts molded into their armor, having armor that accentuates their figure? Is sexuality inherently sexist?

The question you have to ask is why they're dressed that way, how many of them are dressed that way, and how the men next to them are dressed, and what message overall that's likely to send to a woman at your gaming table.

There's a notable difference between idealized male sexuality and idealized female sexuality. The physical traits that make a guy hunk in the conventional sense--namely, height and brawn--are also those that make for a more formidable fighter. The same isn't true of women. So what do you do to address sexism? Downplay idealized women?

Sexism and sexual dimorphism are entirely different issues. You address sexism by not being sexist. What that means to you individually is going to vary, but I don't think it has to mean ignoring or downplaying the physical differences between the sexes.

TheShroud · Jun 18, 2012

Elf Witch said:
First of all could you please use the English language here and spell out words instead of text speakusing also paragraphs are your friend I found this nearly impossible to read.

The fact that you think it hunky dory that all RPGs have woman dressed in scanty clothes and that is okay is really an issue. A lot of us both men and woman have said we would rather see less cheesecake and beefcake and more art that really makes these people look like adventurers.

As a female gamer it matters to me and let me tell you I have had female friends refuse to even consider gaming because that artwork says woman are not to be taken seriously and that the product is marketed to horny teen age boys.

If woman want to model and pose for Playboy more power to them it is there life and body if girls want to run around as Vampirella at cons that is there choice.

And it my choice not to buy a product and to speak out and say why.

First and foremost my apologies for the other day i was in a bit of a rush, wife and I were going to her father's Bday.

Secondly I never said it was ok, all I said was that it happens, and to get mad at this product because they are doing it too is pointless.

Also though you may feel it is a negative out look and (I Don't put my value in it being right or wrong, but rather it just there). Though it may be hurtful to some women playing in the RPG world, this may also bring in some female players simply because it has more women involved in the game, heck the women being selected to be the characters are also going to be taught the system so that they can go to major events and act as DMs.

What really hurts old fashioned Table top games is the stigma's we have recieved AKA Devil worshipping... and weirdos. (though that is a horrible thing to say about a group in general, it is said and believed by many to be truth. and honestly that is what hurts our numbers more than anything. I feel that as an RPG community instead of focusing on the negatives we should find ways of bringing a better light to table top games, ( i dont know maybe have a group of RPGers go to a hospital and teach sick children how to play.) or go out and help the community while promoting the idea that people can join and play games and also help others, maybe then people wouldnt assume there is something wrong with us as gamers (because there isn't).

Again I never said it was ok that RPGs have skimpy clothes, all i stated is that it is there.

I try not to waste my time on being mad about things I can't control and focus more on ways I can make it better.

In other words I don't complain about crap unless I can fix it.

Again I aplogize for my prievious email being written in haste. Also I am tired and about to go to sleep. Sssoooo... if there is errors in here sorry for that too. Goodnight and I hope you have no random encounters while you sleep

PS your right it is YOUR choice to not buy a product, but it is their choice to make it, and if you are not buying the product why waste your energy being mad at it. Why give them that power over you...

PSS By talking about this product so much (though it appears to be negative), all you are doing is spreading their name out there. and in buisness more often than not bad publicity is better than no publicity.

Felon · Jun 18, 2012

TanithT said:
The question you have to ask is why they're dressed that way, how many of them are dressed that way, and how the men next to them are dressed, and what message overall that's likely to send to a woman at your gaming table.

To whom do I ask these questions? If I ask myself, the answer is just a reflection of my own disposition, not the originator's intents. Personally, I don't see a lot of cheesecake fetish women these days. What I see are characters that are drawn to look cool, depicted to look like badasses, and that often means *not* dressing in highly-protective but bulky and absurd-looking armor. Nobody fantasizes about being the person in the attack-dog chew-toy suit.

Let's take a notable fantasy icon: Xena. Is she cheesecake, or a strong female role model? The show ran long enough that anyone who followed the show probably doesn't think it's the former, but if all you had to go by was one picture, it would be easy to just roll your eyes.

And why does a fantasy character dress lightly? Well, maybe fantasy characters have defensive capabilities we don't. Xena wouldn't be better-suited to fighting thirty guys with plate armor than she would with her wire-fu.

Sexism and sexual dimorphism are entirely different issues. You address sexism by not being sexist. What that means to you individually is going to vary, but I don't think it has to mean ignoring or downplaying the physical differences between the sexes.

Thing is, Fablestream is saying they're not being sexist, and others aren't buying it. So, "address sexism by not being sexist" doesn't seem to do the trick. It's more like "address sexism by not being sexist in anyone's opinion". And that's not tenable, because then you have to cater to the hyper-sensitive.

That's the part of political correctness that drives reasonable people nuts.

Morrus · Jun 18, 2012

Felon said:
Well, Fablestream is saying they're not being sexist, and others aren't buying it. So, "address sexism by not being sexist" doesn't seem to do the trick. It's more like "address sexism by not being sexist in anyone's opinion".

Well, to be fair, nobody* admits to being sexist or racist. Most people will take offence at the very insinuation.

In the end, all we can do is decide for ourselves whether we believe someone's words or actions to be sexist, and to stand up for what we believe to be right. This is a perception and an awareness issue.

And it's worth noting that the scope of this thread has drifted far beyond this particular example. We're now discussing sexism in the hobby in a general sense, which is an excellent discussion to have. Unfortunately, although we've been having it here on EN World for the better part of 10 years, it pretty much always goes the same way. Even going back to the Avalanche Press cheescake covers discussions nearly a decade ago, the conversation usually consists of women tellng us why they feel that way, and some men joining in to tell them that they're wrong. Eventually the women leave, because it's an unpleasant environment for them. I'm hoping threads like this will - eventually - result in an increased awareness of what these women are saying here, on their blogs, on other forums, and have been saying for years.

*Well, very few people.

Dire Bare · Jun 18, 2012

TanithT said:
Oh, and gaming stores. A copy of this book was on display on the countertop in the store I went to for Free RPG Day. I read through it after picking up my swag, because it was right there while I was waiting to check out. It made me feel so thoroughly alienated, creeped out, objectified and insulted that I honestly never want to go back there. I get that it's just one book out of hundreds in the store, but given that they chose to position it prominently on the front counter, it's pretty clear that they stand behind it and think it's normal, acceptable, true, useful or funny. Or all of the above.

Ah, the "Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers" from Mongoose Publishing. The company that amazes me they still exist. They produced a lot of crap-quality products during the d20 glut, and just when I thought they couldn't get any worse with their releases this piece of trash was released. It is a PERFECT example of the sexism in our hobby that so bothers Tanith and the other folks in this thread. What's worse though, is that this book was published in 2002, 10 years ago, is out-of-print, yet was enshrined on the front counter of your "F"LGS?!?! I would have, ah, said something to the manager.

Elf Witch said:
The guide to female gamers is supposed to be funny and poke fun at the stereotypical female gamer. I remember when it came out and the guys I game with had a lot of fun teasing us woman about it. So we got together and did a little stereotypical male gamer book. But it made me wonder why this book was even necessary and where was the companion to it on dealing with male gamers like cat piss man or mouth breather man?

That book was not funny. It was sad. Or at least this guy gamer thinks so.

Felon · Jun 18, 2012

That's more-or-less my point, Morrus. You can't just address sexism by not being sexist unless there's some arbiter whose authority is universally-accepted. There wasn't a series of bullet points for the Genesys guys to consult. Just that deceptive thing called "common sense". Common sense is basically the opposite of racism and sexism: it's a trait that everybody thinks they possess an ample supply of. And yet, people still manage to have extreme differences of opinion.

TanithT · Jun 18, 2012

Felon said:
Well, Fablestream is saying they're not being sexist, and others aren't buying it. So, "address sexism by not being sexist" doesn't seem to do the trick. It's more like "address sexism by not being sexist in anyone's opinion". And that's not tenable, because then you have to cater to the hyper-sensitive.

Good point.

In my way of thinking, if you're talking to a whole group of people and one or two of them say you're an ass, you can probably laugh that off, because there will always be some extremists who are hyper-sensitive. It is not possible to please all of the people all of the time.

If you're talking to a whole group of people and an overwhelming number of them say you're being an ass, I do generally advise checking behind yourself for ears and a tail.

Morrus · Jun 18, 2012

Felon said:
That's more-or-less my point, Morrus. You can't just address sexism by not being sexist unless there's some arbiter whose authority is universally-accepted. There wasn't a series of bullet points for the Genesys guys to consult. Just that deceptive thing called "common sense". Common sense is basically the opposite of racism and sexism: it's a trait that everybody thinks they possess an ample supply of. And yet, people still manage to have extreme differences of opinion.

And yet, despite these difficulties, the world does manage to - slowly - make progress in many of these areas. So the conversation is worth having. And the fact that some people have found the press releases by Genesys uncomfortable might (or might not) be information of use to them.

I'm under no illusion that we'll magically solve the world's ills right here. But discussing them is, I think, healthy.

Felon · Jun 18, 2012

Do you really think I'm trying to abort discussion?

TanithT said:
Good point.

In my way of thinking, if you're talking to a whole group of people and one or two of them say you're an ass, you can probably laugh that off, because there will always be some extremists who are hyper-sensitive. It is not possible to please all of the people all of the time.

If you're talking to a whole group of people and an overwhelming number of them say you're being an ass, I do generally advise checking behind yourself for ears and a tail.

But what if everybody isn't calling you an ass? What if there are a range of opinions, even after you filter out the obligatory agitators and dimbulbs? Maybe at the end of the day, you gotta accept that even some reasonable people are gonna have their buttons pushed the wrong way, and your attempts to assuage their concerns are going to have limited effectiveness at best.