New RPG Company Casting All Women for Genesys

TanithT · Jun 18, 2012

Morrus said:
We're now discussing sexism in the hobby in a general sense, which is an excellent discussion to have. Unfortunately, although we've been having it here on EN World for the better part of 10 years, it pretty much always goes the same way. Even going back to the Avalanche Press cheescake covers discussions nearly a decade ago, the conversation usually consists of women tellng us why they feel that way, and some men joining in to tell them that they're wrong. Eventually the women leave, because it's an unpleasant environment for them.

Somebody critted their spot check there, yepyep.

I do miss gaming, and there are times I miss it enough to poke my nose back in somewhere like ENWorld to chat with other gamers. Or pick up some cool new stuff on Free RPG Day while checking out the local gaming store that I had some positive hopes for.

Then I get hit in the face again with how not welcome I am in the hobby. When I politely say that some things can really make women gamers uncomfortable and would folks please consider how it feels to be one, I get told no, everything is just fine, there is really no such thing. I must be wrong or lying or mistaken about my own experiences.

Ya know, this is seriously No Fun for me. It's just not. I'm not sure it ever can be.

I'm hoping threads like this will - eventually - result in an increased awareness of what these women are saying here, on their blogs, on other forums, and have been saying for years.

You're trying, and I recognize and appreciate that. Unfortunately, it isn't happening.

Kynn · Jun 18, 2012

It's distressing to me that many men will claim there is no sexism at all in gaming, and in their attempts to "prove" it, they will resort to talking down to women, discounting their experiences, and glorifying displays of sexism.

It'd be amusingly ironic if only it weren't so sad and frustrating.

TanithT · Jun 18, 2012

Dire Bare said:
Ah, the "Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers" from Mongoose Publishing. The company that amazes me they still exist. They produced a lot of crap-quality products during the d20 glut, and just when I thought they couldn't get any worse with their releases this piece of trash was released. It is a PERFECT example of the sexism in our hobby that so bothers Tanith and the other folks in this thread. What's worse though, is that this book was published in 2002, 10 years ago, is out-of-print, yet was enshrined on the front counter of your "F"LGS?!?! I would have, ah, said something to the manager.

Probably, but I was all out of patience for being told by guys that I was wrong or mistaken about sexism in the hobby, oversensitive, etc. I just didn't see any point in arguing, so I left. Given it was actually part of the display, I'm guessing it was the manager or owner who put it there in the first place.

They can do whatever they want in there. It's their right. It's my right to vote with my feet and not go back. So much for my local gaming store.

Gaming is supposed to be fun. For everyone. When it stops being fun, it's time to pick up your dice and go home. It's mostly stopped being fun for me.

Elf Witch · Jun 18, 2012

Felon said:
I notice that you and others were quick to respond that no female gamer you've ever met has had any problem whatsoever with violence, and I get the impression that didn't even strike any of you as a disparity. You ask if I would find slavery or racism deserving of the benefit of the doubt. Well, if it's in the context of a fantasy setting where mass slaughter is harmless entertainment, then how can anything be taboo? Why is cheesecake so much more intolerable than carnage? Objectify a person for purposes of running a sword through their guts = no biggie, but objectify a person for purposes of titillation = unacceptably dehumanizing?

Personally, I like to participate in sufficiently adult campaigns where the taking of life is not regarded as a light-hearted matter, and slavery and racism are present but handled in a tasteful way. And, yes, there are idealized, often beautiful people wearing outrageous outfits and fighting with impossible weapons.

I'm stuck at the part where it's somehow reasonable to deem the entire hobby to be sexist. What is that *all* RPG publishers are doing that diminishes females? Or have we completely moved on from discussing products to gaming-table behavior?

The various examples of piggish, cruel behavior at the gaming table evoke outrage and sympathy. Yeah, I want to wring those guys' necks. But are they representative of the entire hobby? When I previously stated that most gamers I've played with were selfish and peevish, you asserted that I had encountered what, in your opinion, constituted an inaccurate reflection of the whole.

Or are we talking more Tanith's lines about the depiction of women geared up in "unsensible" ways that wouldn't fly in the SCA? Not just naked flesh, but even wearing armor that accentuates their figure? Is sexuality inherently sexist?

There's a notable difference between idealized male sexuality and idealized female sexuality. The physical traits that make a guy hunk in the conventional sense--namely, height and brawn--are also those that make for a more formidable fighter. The same isn't true of women. So what do you do to address sexism? Downplay idealized women?

Everyone else in this thread, of which you are certainly no exception, have shared your personal experiences and used them as the basis of forming blanket opinions, so kindly spare me your remarks about how I've passed judgment on others. I haven't passed judgment on anyone I haven't met. I specifically referred to the context of my own personal experiences.

Funny thing about anecdotal evidence. Everyone values their own highly, but it's far less valuable to others. Unless, of course, it serves to reinforce their own anecdotal evidence.

I can't speak for the other woman but in the games I play in I play a hero the good guy who use violence to defend myself and innocents. I don't enjoy playing evil characters unless I am DMing and then I play evil hoping that the good PCs take them out.

I have played in games with slavery, racism and sexism but we were not supporting these themes as the PCs we were fight against them.

That is very different than saying that violence is okay and sex is bad. Again not one of us as said sex is bad. A lot of us have said that in the right context cheesecake works like with succubi. But and this is something that I think is being ignored when the male characters who play say wizards are dressed completely in robes but the female wizards are dressed with a bra top and strip of clothing covering their private parts then the only reason is to turn the female into a sexual object. If both sexes only wore little strips of clothing then you are not singling just the woman out as the sex object.

I don't know how many ways to keep saying this context matters as well as how the males are being dressed if everybody is nude that is different then if only the women are nude.

Felon · Jun 18, 2012

TanithT said:
Then I get hit in the face again with how not welcome I am in the hobby. When I politely say that some things can really make women gamers uncomfortable and would folks please consider how it feels to be one, I get told no, everything is just fine, there is really no such thing. I must be wrong or lying or mistaken about my own experiences.

Ya know, this is seriously No Fun for me. It's just not. I'm not sure it ever can be.

You're trying, and I recognize and appreciate that. Unfortunately, it isn't happening.

As Morrus said, we started out talking about a product, and then we started incorporating a discussion of table behavior. The topics are related, but I hope it's understood that having an open mind towards a product is not a defense of scumbag behavior at the table. It certainly isn't a refutation of scumbag behavior.

I haven't followed the whole thread, but I've seen plenty of words of support and empathy. My heart out goes out to what folks like Stacie have experienced. I won't say something like "it made me feel ashamed to be part of the community", because despite being another white guy, I still have never felt truly like part of a community.

I also won't bother saying there's been progress at enlightening people, because there will also be stupid people who screw everything up for everyone else. But, I will say that thanks to the internet and sites like ENWorld, it's much easier to chat up and scope out people before you sit down with them.

Pick-up games suck IMO.

Morrus · Jun 18, 2012

Felon said:
. You ask if I would find slavery or racism deserving of the benefit of the doubt. Well, if it's in the context of a fantasy setting where mass slaughter is harmless entertainment, then how can anything be taboo? Why is cheesecake so much more intolerable than carnage? Objectify a person for purposes of running a sword through their guts = no biggie, but objectify a person for purposes of titillation = unacceptably dehumanizing?

I missed this post, so forgive me jumping back to it.

In my mind, the difference is that objectification, sexism, and racism are real issues that the players themselves may experience in everyday life. Being stabbed with a sword in real life is, however, extremely unlikely.

It's that impressionable young players may take the wrong message from such scenes or imagery. You'd have to be crazy to translate slaying an orc into real life, but it is perfectly reasonable to think that a player may be uncomfortable with depictions of issues they themselves actually experience.

That, in my mind, is why the two are different. I don't feel I've explained it well, unfortunately.

I'm stuck at the part where it's somehow reasonable to deem the entire hobby to be sexist. What is that *all* RPG publishers are doing that diminishes females? Or have we completely moved on from discussing products to gaming-table behavior? .

If anyone has said "all RPG publishers" are doing this, I'll join you in vehement disagreement. The message I'm getting is "sexism exists in the hobby", not "every member of the hobby is sexist". I don't think anyone in this thread would claim that there are no non-sexist publishers or gamers.

Elf Witch · Jun 18, 2012

TheShroud said:
First and foremost my apologies for the other day i was in a bit of a rush, wife and I were going to her father's Bday.

Secondly I never said it was ok, all I said was that it happens, and to get mad at this product because they are doing it too is pointless.

Also though you may feel it is a negative out look and (I Don't put my value in it being right or wrong, but rather it just there). Though it may be hurtful to some women playing in the RPG world, this may also bring in some female players simply because it has more women involved in the game, heck the women being selected to be the characters are also going to be taught the system so that they can go to major events and act as DMs.

What really hurts old fashioned Table top games is the stigma's we have recieved AKA Devil worshipping... and weirdos. (though that is a horrible thing to say about a group in general, it is said and believed by many to be truth. and honestly that is what hurts our numbers more than anything. I feel that as an RPG community instead of focusing on the negatives we should find ways of bringing a better light to table top games, ( i dont know maybe have a group of RPGers go to a hospital and teach sick children how to play.) or go out and help the community while promoting the idea that people can join and play games and also help others, maybe then people wouldnt assume there is something wrong with us as gamers (because there isn't).

Again I never said it was ok that RPGs have skimpy clothes, all i stated is that it is there.

I try not to waste my time on being mad about things I can't control and focus more on ways I can make it better.

In other words I don't complain about crap unless I can fix it.

Again I aplogize for my prievious email being written in haste. Also I am tired and about to go to sleep. Sssoooo... if there is errors in here sorry for that too. Goodnight and I hope you have no random encounters while you sleep

PS your right it is YOUR choice to not buy a product, but it is their choice to make it, and if you are not buying the product why waste your energy being mad at it. Why give them that power over you...

PSS By talking about this product so much (though it appears to be negative), all you are doing is spreading their name out there. and in buisness more often than not bad publicity is better than no publicity.

I don't expect any post to be perfect. I make spelling areas and grammar errors all the time. But I have found that it is just easier to read a post if it is not a wall of text and if you are not dealing with text speak.

I am not mad I am just sad that this is still an issue and it is not pointless to speak out about something. Speaking out and having discussion is one way change happens. If you don't speak out then you have no one but yourself to blame when change does not happen.

What if people like Martin Luther Ling or Marget Sanger or Susan B Anthony had your attitude that is is pointless to speak up.

My speaking up and telling this company I find their ad unacceptable and because of that they have lost me as a customer I am doing something maybe they won't care and maybe they will.

What hurts table top gaming is the stereotyping. Making hot vixens the new stereotype may bring in some woman but as you can see here it has turned off some of us and some men as well.

Consonant Dude · Jun 18, 2012

TanithT said:
You know what is really discouraging?

When multiple women say, "These are the things I have personally seen and experienced and felt. They discouraged me from gaming. I felt discriminated against." And guys who are absolutely sure that they aren't part of the problem, the ones who are claiming to be the good guys in our hobby, tell them that they're wrong. About their own experiences. That there is no such thing as discouragement or discrimination in our hobby. If women think there is, well, we're just mistaken. Or lying.

Except there's this. Right here. What you're doing.

I'm not saying that no one is allowed to disagree with me, or to hold a different opinion than I do. I have no problem with that. I am saying that if you are trying to tell me, and several other women in this thread, that we are lying or mistaken about our own personal feelings and experiences in the hobby, something is going on here that is a bit beyond your stating your own experience or your opinion. That something is pretty discouraging. I don't know whether or not it's discrimination, but it kinda feels that way.

I'm really not claiming anything here beyond my personal story. There are no deep universal truths here, just that this is what it feels like to be me. This is what I've experienced and what my perceptions are, as one gamer who is female. That's all. Your experiences and your perceptions and your opinion may be different, and that's okay. I respect that. But you don't get to tell me that mine don't exist.

Wow. That sure looks like veiled suggestions that I am some kind of misogynistic prick. When did I ever say your experiences do not exist? Are you confusing me with someone else on this thread?

I just got home, and I know there's a few messages I haven't had the time to respond to but I am aware some people have issues and bad experiences. I am not saying you or anyone else made anything up.

My position remains: I do not buy for a second that the hobby as a whole is "not serving your kind", or actively discouraging females, or whatever other nonsensical exaggeration people have been throwing around. And I also don't buy that the ratio of female to male gamers means there is ample discouragement by the hobby as a whole. I think some of the assertions being made in this thread are divisive and shortsighted.

That does not invalidate individual experiences (which I haven't had the time to respond to). It just means I like things should be addressed for what they are, without being linked together indiscriminately.

I'd rather you stopped with the bold typing telling me not to do things I am not doing, please.

Felon · Jun 18, 2012

Morrus said:
I missed this post, so forgive me jumping back to it.

In my mind, the difference is that objectification, sexism, and racism are real issues that the players themselves may experience in everyday life. Being stabbed with a sword in real life is, however, extremely unlikely.

It's that impressionable young players may take the wrong message from such scenes or imagery. You'd have to be crazy to translate slaying an orc into real life, but it is perfectly reasonable to think that a player may be uncomfortable with depictions of issues they themselves actually experience.

That, in my mind, is why the two are different. I don't feel I've explained it well, unfortunately.

No no, that's a very valid distinction there. Good point.

Note that, however, while the means of inflicting violence may be implausible in the real world, violence is hardly alien to modern life, and it can become a fetish in its own right. Indeed, I think the fundamental reason all these we're talking about are attracted to D&D is that it provides them with an outlet for violent fantasies and ugly behavior.

If anyone has said "all RPG publishers" are doing this, I'll join you in vehement disagreement. The message I'm getting is "sexism exists in the hobby", not "every member of the hobby is sexist". I don't think anyone in this thread would claim that there are no non-sexist publishers or gamers.

Well, maybe I missed the gist of what Amaloo was saying when she was talking about having to avoid the entire hobby if she wished to avoid consuming sexist products.

Kynn · Jun 18, 2012

Consonant Dude said:
My position remains: I do not buy for a second that the hobby as a whole is "not serving your kind", or actively discouraging females, or whatever other nonsensical exaggeration people have been throwing around.

If it was true, and you were wrong about this, how would you know? Would you be able to tell if your hobby was, in fact, as a whole, actively discouraging participation by women?

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here; I'm not saying that you're sexist yourself, but that you may not notice sexism against women, which isn't directly aimed at you.

Having a blind spot doesn't make you a horrible person. But it might be good to listen to the large number of people who do think that sexism in gaming is a problem and that such claims aren't just "nonsensical exaggeration."

(And heck, let's go a step further: let's say you're RIGHT, and there's absolutely no sexism in gaming somehow -- but a lot of women and men feel that sexism in gaming is a problem. How can RPG gaming deal with that perception in a way that doesn't reinforce the idea that gaming is sexism, but instead show gaming's best side?)