New RPG Company Casting All Women for Genesys

nnms · Jun 18, 2012

TanithT said:
If I was expressing it in a manner that could possibly be construed that way, yes, it certainly could.

I don't see how you could not. If someone likes X and you say X is harmful, you've done so. And people will get their backs up and friendly disagreement turns into alienation.

The actual issue is very far from a 'moral' one, though I imagine some folks on either side of the gender gap might get them conflated.

I'm trying to let you know why people you are talking about are reacting to you the way they are.

They are perceiving your objections as moralizing. Even if they are not.

So what happens when the way you enjoy your hobby actively detracts from my comfort and enjoyment, and we're in the same hobby?

I'm sure the cases where you've spoken up and the rest of the table suddenly felt their comfort and enjoyment was detracted from didn't give you the warmest reception for the rest of the session.

What I do know is that if you are in a group and the rest of the people like something and you claim it's harmful or that it gives you emotional distress, what you are communicating to the other people is that their liking it is somehow wrong or inappropriate. They are going to close ranks and place the moral critic on the outside.

You described suddenly feeling alienated and whatnot.

That's why.

As I said before, people don't do their hobbies to be judged. You don't like it when you or your characters are judged a certain way. So why would you expect anyone to like it when you turn the judgement around on them by making statements that intimate that there is something wrong with how they are doing things or what they like?

Are you in the right? Sure. Do group dynamics care about that? Nope.

Lwaxy · Jun 18, 2012

I have found out that part of the denial is that men, don't want realities of life including sexism to intrude into their gaming fun. So both not saying things guys "always will say" as I have been told, and acknowledging that some of the behaviors are sexist won't do. Only way is to pretend there is no sexism in any given group.

to be fair, that can go both ways. I was in an all female group once and you won't believe some of the things that were said about men. It's like normal "chick talk" taken to the 9th degree. OK, so lots of it was venting frustration about male gamers but still.

As for myself, I luckily was never driven away from gaming but once, and that was mainly because the GM was a jerk not related to sexism. I usually fit in with the guys well enough, as I'm not "girly" whatever that exactly is. But I had it happen that I ended up being the only woman left at the table because the others were uncomfortable with some of the jokes. Which I usually only learned long after they were gone.

Morrus · Jun 18, 2012

Consonant Dude said:
Hmm, I guess it could sound this way but that's not how I perceived it when it happened to me.

Of course you didn't perceive it that way. I don't know anything about you, but I'm guessing you're not part of a group that is discriminated against.

A good test is to replace some words. Replace gender with an ethnic minority. Heck, say "You're eloquent for a black man" and you'll see just how offensive it can be.

Being a white male is a lucky position of non-discrimination. Of course we won't be sensitive to these things. Why would we be?

If you can honestly say "you game well for a woman" doesn't bother you, I'll be surprised.

nnms · Jun 18, 2012

Morrus said:
I appreciate that there are very few women speaking up here. And that there are almost no men expressing support for your side of this, and several strenuously denying that the problem even exists. And that's a damn shame.

I think the main reason that most men don't rally to such positions is that the approach of feminism has largely excluded them in most of their experiences with it in their lives. Many men see feminism as the idea that you can solve issues affecting two genders by concentrating on one of them. So the typical guy, who may support a given side, is unlikely to comment in the thread because they already think it's not their place.

So who's left? The ones who want to close ranks against perceived moralizing and handful of others who are interested in gender issues.

But if *I* end up being the lone voice, then it's useless. I have no validity here.

Nonsense. Your Y chromosome has no impact on the validity of your positions and observations.

Stop apologizing for your birth. You probably have more ability to affect change in the gaming community than most thanks to your ability to bring news and editorials about the issues to EnWorld.

TanithT · Jun 19, 2012

nnms said:
I don't see how you could not. If someone likes X and you say X is harmful, you've done so. And people will get their backs up and friendly disagreement turns into alienation.

I don't think that porn of any flavor is intrinsically harmful at all. It's great, actually. You should enjoy as much of it as you want with other consenting adults.

When you take porn outside the happy context of being sexual with other consenting adults, and you put it in places where it can cause social issues and involve people who either aren't adults or don't consent or both, that's not so good. If either part of the 'consenting adults' element is absent when you're trying to be sexual, it's a problem.

This doesn't translate to 'sex is bad." This translates to 'sex is for consenting adults to enjoy'. Sexuality with consenting adults = good. Sexuality that negatively impacts people who are not consenting or not adults = bad.

I'm trying to let you know why people you are talking about are reacting to you the way they are.

They are perceiving your objections as moralizing. Even if they are not.

You have good points about the social dynamic, thank you. However, I'm not sure how to address this type of deficiency in other people's understanding of what I'm saying.

Greatwyrm · Jun 19, 2012

Morrus said:
Being a white male is a lucky position of non-discrimination. Of course we won't be sensitive to these things. Why would we be?

Being a white guy isn't always what it's cracked up to be. Once upon a time, I was told my hiring for a previous employer was delayed by six months because someone higher up the food chain couldn't understand why I'd want to do "women's work". When I was in a room with thirty women at another training session and I won the door prize, there was a collectively held breath while the 250 pound good ol' boy went up to (cheerfully and graciously) collect his gift bag of potpourri, flower notepad, and a scented candle. Not to mention the endless stream of "men suck because...", "hunky movie star", and "ladies' issues" discussions that always ended with sidelong glances and my assurances they wouldn't be included in a sexual harassment lawsuit.

Just because I use the other bathroom doesn't mean I don't get it.

nnms · Jun 19, 2012

TanithT said:
When you take porn outside the happy context of being sexual with other consenting adults, and you put it in places where it can cause social issues and involve people who either aren't adults or don't consent or both, that's not so good. If either part of the 'consenting adults' element is absent when you're trying to be sexual, it's a problem.

You don't see claiming that something that someone likes in their fantasy art is pornographic and that they are participating in exposing it to non-consenting adults or to minors might just be a bit inflammatory? That they might perceive that as you attacking something they like and responding to you as an outside moral critic?

You have good points about the social dynamic, thank you. However, I'm not sure how to address this type of deficiency in other people's understanding of what I'm saying.

Now I think they probably get what you are trying to communicate quite clearly and just don't like it. If I was running a game and you started talking about how the rulebook for the game (or perhaps the GM screen?) is an example of spreading pornography to minors, I'd tell you that we can talk about it outside of the game session. If you persisted, I'd ask you to leave the table and stop accusing the people playing of being criminals.

Up until the last post, I was willing to accept that you weren't moralizing, but now, I'm not so sure.

Fantasy art as exposing minors to pornography? Just wow. No wonder other gamers you've interacted with have gotten up in arms when you start talking about this issue. You're accusing them of a serious crime.

Consonant Dude · Jun 19, 2012

Morrus said:
Of course you didn't perceive it that way. I don't know anything about you, but I'm guessing you're not part of a group that is discriminated against.

I am but that's irrelevant.

Morrus said:
A good test is to replace some words. Replace gender with an ethnic minority. Heck, say "You're eloquent for a black man" and you'll see just how offensive it can be.

Yeah, that sounds... terrible, I agree. But that's not because you replaced a gender with an ethnic background, IMO.

Saying "hey, you're pretty smart for a woman" would lead to just as much facepalming. And that's gender-related.

However, consider how many people pointed out how great it was to see an African American in the oval office. Rightly so, IMO.

Nobody should be surprised that a black man can be well-spoken or a woman smart. Those who are have issues and usually bear negative feelings and thoughts (even repressed).

However, people can be genuinely glad to see someone pursuing a dream, career, hobby that doesn't fall into the usual stereotyped demographic and that doesn't immediately scream of discrimination or condescension to me. It can be quite the other way around!

I'm not discarding how you see it or how other people are seeing it but I don't think that's a given that most people will interpret it this way. At least I hope so. I think a lot of it has to do with intent, context and the genuine message behind, not just the words.

If it's about embracing diversity and celebrating individual empowerment, I'm cool with it

Lwaxy · Jun 19, 2012

nnms said:
You don't see claiming that something that someone likes in their fantasy art is pornographic and that they are participating in exposing it to non-consenting adults or to minors might just be a bit inflammatory?

Fantasy art as exposing minors to pornography?

I had 4 parents not give consent to their kids playing because some of the books have such soft porno artwork, even if there were only a few pieces. One mother of another kid plain out said that she'd not ever want her son take part in an activity that portrays women as sex objects. I had to explain to her how art in fantasy changes and that I don't use such pictures or that we rather make fun of them.

Every child that looks through our book collection will inevitably find some of those pictures. Sure, it is not worse than what you see in every place they sell magazines. But I do think it is worse in the context of it being a game which is, in itself, rather kid friendly.

Elf Witch · Jun 19, 2012

nnms said:
Can it be okay to not be the intended market for a product? I'm not the intended market for a lot of things and if I stumble upon something that's not for me, I put it back down and look at something else.

Don't think this just happens because it's a gender issue. Lots of people identify strongly with a given aesthetic or body of media. You'd experience a similar (but lesser) reaction if you expressed your dislike for something else the rest of the people at the table liked. But it's not just expressing dislike that you're talking about. You're accusing the other people around you of being immoral for liking it-- that's how they see it anyway. That probably contributes the most to any escalation from friendly disagreement to alienation.

It's human nature to ostracize a moral critic. Especially in our time where any form of appearing judgmental is a socially acceptable target for alienation or ostracism. People participate in their hobbies for enjoyment, not to be judged.

No one should be surprised or shocked when they say that something someone else likes is harmful that the reaction is less than friendly.

If you are trying to find subtle proof of anything in the way people express themselves, you'll find the evidence you want to see. I would hate to spend my time looking for opportunities to be offended by messages I perceive others as sending.

I had to get up and walk away from my computer after reading this because I was really angry. Because what you are saying is that woman are not the intended target to buy or play RPGs. That if we don't like how the woman are portrayed we should put it down and walk away. And people wonder why woman walk away from gaming,

I don't expect a magazine like Playboy or Maxim to cater to be but I had thought we had gotten past the idea that RPGs are only for the boys.

She has not once nor have the rest of us accused any male gamer of being immoral for liking cheesecake. What we have complained about is the sexist and rude and creepy behavior at some tables. Did you over look the posts where she said for example she was fine with porn she just doesn't want in her gaming art?

I get what you are saying which is basically shut up how dare you speak out about something that you find bothers you about your hobby.