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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Consonant Dude View Post
    You would be more than welcome should you ever come to Montreal!

    I usually run games in my native language, though. I did run a mini-campaign in Shakespeare's tongue in Toronto and a bilingual campaign once so I'm rusty but willing

    Barring that, maybe one day I'll try gaming online if I find a group!
    You mean I would have to learn a new language? /sigh
    You sound like my friend Claude who lives in Canada, he said I would have to learn French. I told him if ever I knew I would go up there, then sure thing.
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  • #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felon View Post
    Let me see if I can show a couple of trailers from two different upcoming video games. They have been decried using words like "sexist", "misogynistic", and "disempowering". I'm interested to hear if people here draw parallels and/or distinctions between them:

    The first is from the upcoming Tomb Raider prequel.

    Tomb Raider - E3 2012 Exclusive Crossroads Trailer - YouTube
    Any new Tomb Raider game has to deal with the baggage of the series, and Lara Croft's traditional outfit is typical sexist video game crap . . . I've never played any of the games, only seen the movie and the marketing, but friends have told me that despite her usual outfit, Croft is a strong female character.

    In the above trailer, it looks like a reimagining of the character and franchise to me, in a good way. Croft's outfit doesn't come across as sexist at all to me, although she does look sexy in the trailer. She also doesn't appear to be as confidently bad-ass as I've always assumed she was portrayed in older games (but again, haven't played them) . . . she seemed like a normal person caught up in horrific events . . . although with what she goes through in the trailer, I'm not sure Indiana Jones would make it out of that alive! (and I don't say that cause Indy's a guy, but rather because he's the archetypal bad-ass adventuring archaeologist)

    The second is a trailer for Hitman: Absolutions.

    Hitman Absolution - Attack of the Saints Trailer [North America] - YouTube
    This one, however, pissed me off. The assassin nuns stripping off their habits into sexy bondage gear before shooting a missile launcher into the hotel room was sexist video game stupidity at its finest. If the assasanuns lost the moronic nun high heels and had kept their habits on as they tried to kill our hero, it might've actually looked pretty good. This kind of trailer definitely keeps me from purchasing video games, I won't be looking at the new Hitman game anytime soon. And I'm a guy.
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  • #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    OK, I'll accept that "eloquence" was a bad example. But I don't think that invalidates the point. Let's drop "eloquence" and replace it with "gaming":
    1. You're good at gaming for a black man.
    2. You're good at gaming for a homosexual man.
    3. You're good at gaming for a woman.

    How does the third differ to the first two in your mind?
    It doesn't. They all read condescending to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    I don't quite get the linquistic trick which enabled you to characterise the sexism we're discussing as "people glad to see someone pursuing a hobby"?
    Yeah, I must have missed something because now it sounds like you're saying I find sexism to be a good way to greet people.

    I don't do that, sorry. I'm not really sure what you are referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    That's not what we're talking about at all. What we're (and when I see "we" I appear to mean "me and a couple of women") trying to discourage is discrimination, not welcoming statements.
    A lot of people have spoken out against discrimination in this thread. That includes me. The fact my opinion does not map out a 100% with yours does not change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    It all comes down to women saying "we're made uncomfortable by the sexism in this hobby". We can either accept that at face value or not. No amount of semantic or linguistic discussion changes that basic choice.

    May I ask - what is your choice here? I'm a little unclear. Do you accept at face value the reasons cited by women in this thread for their non-participation?
    Semantics? Discussion changes? Man, earlier when I gave you the example about women finding it sexy to see a man taking charge of the kitchen, it didn't count. I had to roll with this notion that what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander. It's not discrimination if it's done to me.

    Then later you come back with an example on a black person. I point out how I see things and now you shift to some other example and then ask me to take some kind of stand when all along, I've been giving you answers as best as I can.

    I made my position abundantly clear. You said yesterday that it wasn't about you. It was about these women posting on ENWorld, telling us how they feel. Isn't it weird that today, none of the women I have interacted with here have any problem understanding what I am saying but somehow, none of my answer is ever good enough for you?


    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    To me, it's about creating an environment which is welcoming to all who wish to participate. No need to celebrate or embrace anything; just to not make things uncomfortable for anyone (and by "anyone" I mean groups, not individuals).
    Speaking of semantics... the answer you just gave is pretty much identical, as far as general sentiment, to what you had quoted.

    We both are firmly against sexism. We have both acknowledged that sexism exists in this hobby. We are both listening to what women are saying about the state of gaming. We want everyone to have access and feel welcome in this hobby.

    So what is the problem here?

  • #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Consonant Dude View Post
    It doesn't. They all read condescending to me.

    Yeah, I must have missed something because now it sounds like you're saying I find sexism to be a good way to greet people.

    I don't do that, sorry. I'm not really sure what you are referring to.

    A lot of people have spoken out against discrimination in this thread. That includes me. The fact my opinion does not map out a 100% with yours does not change that.

    Semantics? Discussion changes? Man, earlier when I gave you the example about women finding it sexy to see a man taking charge of the kitchen, it didn't count. I had to roll with this notion that what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander. It's not discrimination if it's done to me.

    Then later you come back with an example on a black person. I point out how I see things and now you shift to some other example and then ask me to take some kind of stand when all along, I've been giving you answers as best as I can.

    I made my position abundantly clear. You said yesterday that it wasn't about you. It was about these women posting on ENWorld, telling us how they feel. Isn't it weird that today, none of the women I have interacted with here have any problem understanding what I am saying but somehow, none of my answer is ever good enough for you?f

    Speaking of semantics... the answer you just gave is pretty much identical, as far as general sentiment, to what you had quoted.

    We both are firmly against sexism. We have both acknowledged that sexism exists in this hobby. We are both listening to what women are saying about the state of gaming. We want everyone to have access and feel welcome in this hobby.

    So what is the problem here?
    Well, we're clearly talking at cross purposes somewhere if you keep on thinking I'm accusing you of things.

    I was merely trying to argue that I did not think your Obama analogy was a relevant one to the discussion. It was an illustration of positive, not negative attitudes. Maybe I was a little long-winded about it, but that's pretty much what it boiled down to.

    Not to put words in your mouth, but from this post I get the impression that my rejection of both analogies (you cooking, and Obama's presidency) might be making you feel I'm dismissing you in some way? I'm not, but I feel both analogies are fundamentally flawed.

    But that's all minutia in the greater debate, on which we appear to have a general concordance.

  • #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Morrus View Post
    Not to put words in your mouth, but from this post I get the impression that my rejection of both analogies (you cooking, and Obama's presidency) might be making you feel I'm dismissing you in some way? I'm not, but I feel both analogies are fundamentally flawed.

    But that's all minutia in the greater debate, on which we appear to have a general concordance.
    That we do!

    I wouldn't say I felt dismissed.

    I have to tell you, this feels very different from talking about what kind of spell system should be used in 5th edition, or whether Shadowrun's setting is more interesting than Transhuman Space.

    If you and I were to argue about DnD combat. You tell me it should use a d20, I tell you it should use a reading of chicken bones thrown randomly on a plate... it's not really a big deal. It doesn't even matter what you think of me after the discussion. And if you misunderstood, there's no harm.

    Here it feels... a lot more significant. This issue transcends gaming. Discrimination and hatred hurts people. I feel like I'm walking on a tightrope because with every post, I am under the impression I may be misjudged for a person I am not.

    It's a massive subject. With each post in this thread, we can go in different directions. We've touched on racism, sexism, violence, sexualization, objectification and even whether discrimination against white men really exists. You could write a thesis on any of these subjects and still not reach consensus on any one of these subjects.

    At least one person has said on this thread she felt less welcome in the hobby after reading it. That's sad.

    Because of all this, I'm probably a little more edgy than I should be. Sorry if I'm a little defensive. I'm gonna stop with the assumptions.

  • #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Consonant Dude View Post
    I wouldn't say I felt dismissed.
    I did feel dismissed, specifically by what you said in response to my sharing my own experience and perspective. I respect your right to draw different conclusions, have different opinions, and to disagree. Whether it was your intent or not, and your later posts suggests that it probably was not, I honestly felt that what you said was more dismissive than disagreeing.

    Just letting you know that this was how I personally felt after reading your response to my restaurant analogy. That's all. No grand universal truths intended or implied here.


    At least one person has said on this thread she felt less welcome in the hobby after reading it. That's sad.
    More than one. The combined impact this week of this thread, of taking a statistical look at the promo stuff handed out on Free RPG Day, and the display in my local gaming store has been pretty significant for me.

    Not that it isn't just more of the same stuff I've been dealing with for years, but it's been a pretty solid confirmation on all fronts that there really is very little left here that is fun for me.

    The people who think of themselves as the good guys in gaming, as the ones who are speaking out *against* discrimination, are also telling me that I'm wrong for trying to explain what it actually feels like to me. They're saying that my experiences are invalid or don't exist. And that does have an impact. Though probably not the one they intended.
    Last edited by TanithT; Tuesday, 19th June, 2012 at 04:58 AM.

  • #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheShroud View Post
    I appreciate what you are saying, (no i truly do, no sarcasim) My wife (God I love her) is often comparing herself to these women in the media or what society has put out there as to what to expect, and it breaks my heart she is so gorgeous and so incredible and though i love her looks i find her attractive for more than just her good looks, I see her brillance (and honestly she is probably a lot better person than myself). Sorry i am getting off track.. lol I tend to do that about her.

    My point is I hate how society has said what is right or wrong, or pretty or not, But I choose to find ways everyday to make her realize that this is not the truth of the world or everyone in it. It is all I can do.

    I am sorry that there are a lot of creepers out there, and unfortunately they find their way into our fun world away from our hard lives. RPGs are suppose to be a place where we can unwind, escape, or just be able to be someone else for a few hours. It shouldnt ever be uncomfortable or causing seperation.

    I also think that there are some women out there like you said who break their ankles trying to look the part, but lets face it there are plenty of men out there doing something if not more just as stupid, I want to blame society but the reality is it is there own choice to follow what others say.

    All we can do is like we have all said in our own ways, Change it or avoid it.

    Sorry for any confusion I may have put out there leading yall to think I am ok with sexism, I am far from that.

    I was a prior soldier and I worked with women who were just as tough as any guy I knew, hell most of them were tougher for the simple fact they usually had more to deal with.
    Sure men do dumb things to. We all do.

    I am not saying that society is to blame because we are society and we are responsible for our decisions. I just saying the pressure to conform can be intense. It is just not woman who get this. Men who stray from what society thinks men should do can have a rough time as well. I took ballet in my youth. Male dancers can have a rough time with their peers and family. One big misconception is that male ballet dancers must be gay and believe me that is not true. Sure some are but it is not a given.

    But from the time we are born the boys with their blue blankets and the girls with their pink society starts telling is what is expected from us. I sometimes think in some ways girls can have it a little easier being a tomboy is not seen as bad as a boy being a sissy.

    We all try and find a place where we can be comfortable. For me it is the geek hobbies like gaming, SF Cons, SCA.

    Over time I have learned to pick my battles. I am big letter writer to companies who do things that upset me. As I said in another post I don't game with jerks and I won't sit there and stew if something is really offensive. Though I often use humor to get my point a cross when it is someone who I know is not really trying to be offensive.
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  • #218
    Quote Originally Posted by TanithT View Post
    I did feel dismissed, specifically by what you said in response to my sharing my own experience and perspective. I respect your right to draw different conclusions, have different opinions, and to disagree. Whether it was your intent or not, and your later posts suggests that it probably was not, I honestly felt that what you said was more dismissive than disagreeing.

    Just letting you know that this was how I personally felt after reading your response to my restaurant analogy. That's all. No grand universal truths intended or implied here.
    I'm really sorry you feel this way. I'm gonna read back the thread. What I think I've said (or at least wanted to say) is that I don't see this hobby as a whole to be sexist, exclusive, etc...

    I did not ever want to dismiss your experience, deny what you felt like. My point was that there was a lot being offered in gaming. It's got crap like foundation (you know, the old d20 superhero aberration with boobie stats) but a lot of cool products. It's got creepy players but a lot of positive, welcoming people.

    I also said I couldn't believe that the industry's presentation of its products, or the behavior of its participant, could be pointed out as the unique reason why we have such a ratio of women in this hobby.

    But never ever did I intend for you to think your experience didn't matter, or tell you to just get another hobby. And I am really sorry if it sounded that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by TanithT View Post
    More than one. The combined impact this week of this thread, of taking a statistical look at the promo stuff handed out on Free RPG Day, and the display in my local gaming store has been pretty significant for me.

    Not that it isn't just more of the same stuff I've been dealing with for years, but it's been a pretty solid confirmation on all fronts that there really is very little left here that is fun for me.

    The people who think of themselves as the good guys in gaming, as the ones who are speaking out *against* discrimination, are also telling me that I'm wrong for trying to explain what it actually feels like to me. They're saying that my experiences are invalid or don't exist. And that does have an impact. Though probably not the one they intended.
    That's... depressing. I really hope you reconsider. I hope I didn't make you feel like you were wrong for explaining how you felt. It never crossed my mind to do that.

    And just so you know, people who are reading this thread gather a lot from your experiences, I know I do. We're all discussing and sometimes disagreeing. But then stuff sinks in. I'm processing what is being said by everyone in this thread. I hope there was something of value for someone in what I said as well.

  • #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dire Bare View Post
    Any new Tomb Raider game has to deal with the baggage of the series, and Lara Croft's traditional outfit is typical sexist video game crap . . . I've never played any of the games, only seen the movie and the marketing, but friends have told me that despite her usual outfit, Croft is a strong female character.

    In the above trailer, it looks like a reimagining of the character and franchise to me, in a good way. Croft's outfit doesn't come across as sexist at all to me, although she does look sexy in the trailer. She also doesn't appear to be as confidently bad-ass as I've always assumed she was portrayed in older games (but again, haven't played them) . . . she seemed like a normal person caught up in horrific events . . . although with what she goes through in the trailer, I'm not sure Indiana Jones would make it out of that alive! (and I don't say that cause Indy's a guy, but rather because he's the archetypal bad-ass adventuring archaeologist)



    This one, however, pissed me off. The assassin nuns stripping off their habits into sexy bondage gear before shooting a missile launcher into the hotel room was sexist video game stupidity at its finest. If the assasanuns lost the moronic nun high heels and had kept their habits on as they tried to kill our hero, it might've actually looked pretty good. This kind of trailer definitely keeps me from purchasing video games, I won't be looking at the new Hitman game anytime soon. And I'm a guy.
    Well, I'm happy that at least somebody replied to that post and shared their thoughts.

    The Tomb Raider trailer has drawn flack for showing Lara as being disempowered. It's a kind of catch-22: if you use a female character as something kind of untouchable badass, then some people will say she's plastic and phony. If you show her vulnerable and human, then some will say she's being used as an object for degradation. Not my words, mind you. I like the clip and look forward to the game.

    The Hitman trailer is totally bizarre and uncomfortable. The PVC sex costumes would be weird and out-of-place in their own right, but then they're mixed in with the nun habits. And then to top things off, after the titillation, we get to see slow-mo shots of them being slaughtered. It's not just tasteless, it's downright yucky. The hate on it pretty universal.
    Last edited by Felon; Tuesday, 19th June, 2012 at 07:25 AM.
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  • #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Consonant Dude View Post
    I'm really sorry you feel this way. I'm gonna read back the thread. What I think I've said (or at least wanted to say) is that I don't see this hobby as a whole to be sexist, exclusive, etc...
    We're different people, and of course going to have different personal experiences and perspectives. That's not solely a function of gender, though of course that's an influence. I'm glad that your experiences and presumably those of the women you've gamed with have been good, though it might be really enlightening if you asked some of them quietly and privately in a safe and supportive enough environment that they did not feel compelled to say, "no, it's okay" to avoid inviting criticism or accusations of being prudish, moralistic, etc.

    You've seen what happens when a woman does say, "Yes, this stuff makes me feel bad." It generally results in pretty much of a shitstorm, even if she's not yelling or accusing or doing anything except saying, "Hey, just so you know, this is how it feels." A lot of women will avoid that conflict and pay the silent price by not saying anything. Or they walk away, and you might not know why. They aren't telling, because they really don't want to get into that fight. It's just not worth it. That may be happening more often than you know.

    In my personal experience, over the years I've been gaming, the hobby as a whole has been described by most of the women I know as sexist, exclusionary, a men's club, or as creepy or scary to them. Not to say that every single gamer is like this, or that every single book has rape imagery or cheesecake pinup art that treats women as bimbos rather than as full characters, but enough do that we really do notice and it makes a personal impact.

    These things specifically have made a personal impact on me and my experience often enough over the years to have really worn my enthusiasm for gaming down from "I live for gaming and am hugely active and even professionally involved in the hobby" to "not even worth trying any more, I'm just going to have another bad experience."

    So yes, I do personally see the hobby as a whole as invariably containing these kinds of experiences for me and for other women. It may not be the largest percentage of encounters, but it's common enough to be on the encounter table. Keep rolling and it's gonna come up.

    I'm sure it's better in some places than others. I'm sure there is such a thing as women who have rolled well enough on their personal encounter tables, or just been selective enough about who they game with and what books they use, that they have never had really bad experiences or unwelcoming comments pointed in their direction. I just don't personally happen to know any.

    The nature of this issue is that it's always going to be a lot less visible to people who don't get targeted, simply because unless it happens literally in front of you, you won't see or hear it. Women are more likely to talk about these experiences where they know they won't get jumped on or criticized or called prudish for doing so. And many will not talk about them if they think it will just engender more conflict and bad feelings, or if their acceptance and approval as 'one of the guys' is threatened.


    I also said I couldn't believe that the industry's presentation of its products, or the behavior of its participant, could be pointed out as the unique reason why we have such a ratio of women in this hobby.
    Solely? No. The hobby doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is a gestalt, a whole made up of its parts, and the overall impression is worth considering.


    But never ever did I intend for you to think your experience didn't matter, or tell you to just get another hobby. And I am really sorry if it sounded that way.
    I appreciate that. My intent was to describe and illustrate with an analogy how my personal experience felt to me, not to say that my opinions and conclusions are all absolutely factual and no one can disagree or come to different conclusions. They're fact for me - they are indeed my experiences and my perceptions - but that's all they are.

    I do personally experience sexism and discrimination in the hobby, in pretty much every aspect I've ever been involved in over the years. Obviously not from every person or game or every book; I agree there are great people and games and books. But the percentage of creepy people, exclusionary remarks and bad female character depictions is high enough that there are no good avoidance strategies that don't seriously limit my involvement in the hobby.



    And just so you know, people who are reading this thread gather a lot from your experiences, I know I do. We're all discussing and sometimes disagreeing. But then stuff sinks in. I'm processing what is being said by everyone in this thread. I hope there was something of value for someone in what I said as well.
    I hope so, and that's certainly more of a hopeful thought.

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