RPGs New RPG Company Casting All Women for Genesys - Page 24




+ Log in or register to post
Page 24 of 28 FirstFirst ... 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 LastLast
Results 231 to 240 of 271
  1. #231
    Registered User
    Guide (Lvl 11)

    Dire Bare's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Boise, Idaho
    Posts
    1,840

    Ignore Dire Bare
    Quote Originally Posted by fablestreams View Post
    Hello Everyone,

    We want to thank everyone for his or her advice, criticism and input. Fable Streams is a young company and we are interested in getting everyones feedback so that we can learn and grow. One of the releases for our 1 of the 9 launch event noticeably has ruffled some feathers.
    It's good you are absorbing feedback, and thanks for the acknowledgement.

    We would like to note that in our minds, the definition of hot, gorgeous, chicks, ladies, etc. is what each individual makes it mean. For us, a truly gorgeous individual is one who knows with absolutes what makes her the powerful and inspiring person that she is.
    This, right here, is your problem, IMO. You can't simply redefine words and expect folks to roll along with you. I don't care what "gorgeous" and "hot" mean to you. I know what they really mean, and if I didn't, I have a dictionary. Words have meaning.

    The word-choice and tone of your marketing so far is exclusionary, insulting to those of us who made it past middle school, and focuses on the physical attractiveness of a false stereotype, the "hot gamer chick". Not that there aren't women out there who love games and are hot. I know more than a few in real life, and can also point to some good celebrity examples . . . who would all probably be equally appalled at your marketing efforts to date.

    Of course you want attractive people to represent your product, and it's cool that you also want them to be real gamers, and not just paid actors or models. It's not so much what you're doing, but how. If you put out a talent search for product representatives, both men and women, who are charismatic enough to represent your product and company and are members of the gaming community, without all the juvenile language like "hot", "gorgeous", "chicks", and etc . . . you might have ruffled a few less feathers.

    As it stands right now, I'm 0% interested in your product. If I stumble upon some better marketing efforts down the road, I might be tempted to give FableStreams another shot.
    Hi, my real name is Brian Zuber.
    Fan of all D&D editions and campaign settings. Really!

    Suggested reading for the edition warrior:

 

  • #232
    Potassium-Rich Moderator
    A 1e title so awesome it's not in the book (Lvl 21)

    Kamikaze Midget's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Boston-ish
    Posts
    12,702
    Blog Entries
    24

    Ignore Kamikaze Midget
    Quote Originally Posted by TanithT
    Because females have an equal right to be the protagonists in any genre?
    Yes. But that isn't a real answer. Because gender is also not irrelevant.

    To put it a slightly different way: "Why can't a male character be central in this particular story about someone going through this brutal physical punishment?"

    The point being that the gender of your protagonist is a choice with consequences, not just a coin flip. If you put a male, or a transgendered person, in that role, the story should change, even if only subtly.

    So what is that choice doing in Tomb Raider? What effect does her being female play in the telling of that story. Why is it useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by TanithT
    You make many very good points, but this is actually one I disagree with. I like telling human stories that aren't automatically gendered ones, and when a story can be told that matters and has the same heroic impact whether the protagonist is male or female, I tend to like it a lot better
    Aye, I think we're getting at the crux of our mild disagreement.

    I don't think there can be gender-neutral stories. As long as gender exists, it is an influence, if only subtly, if only in the background, if only in the mind of the creators. Gender doesn't always need to be front-and-center. But it's always present, and it cannot be inconspicuously removed. The story of a woman getting tormented and worn down only to find strength from her father and overcome her adversity is different story from the story of the man getting tormented and worn down only to find strength from his father and overcome his adversity. The arcs and the meanings are quite different. Whether or not they should be, or are intended to be, they are. I think if you try to pretend that isn't the case, you get a sort of false perspective that does a disservice to everyone involved.

    Gender, I think, is always present. Tomb Raider specifically has never tried to push Lara's gender to the background (QUITE the opposite, the series' success might be partially based on the heroine's cup size). In this trailer specifically the gender becomes important, whether or not it's intentional (and I think in a few situations at least it is intentional).

    Because humans have gender, it's hard (if not functionally impossible), IMO, to tell a believable human story without also telling a gendered story. Because your protagonist needs to have SOME gender, and because the gender they have will affect how the audience will see them, the good story uses the gender like they use every other element of that story: to help relay the message. Think of how Joss Whedon uses gender in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer series. It MATTERS that Buffy is a woman. She's not gender-neutral.

    This might be holding a videogame (hardly a medium known for nuanced...anything) to too high of a scale, but hell, I don't really think, "Be aware of the context in which your stuff happens" should be too high a standard for ANY creative work.

    Anyway.

    That's why I feel a little skeeved out at the Tomb Raider trailer. I feel like I'm invited to leer luridly at this abused woman. And BECAUSE it's a woman, it carries with it some specific cultural baggage (ranging from domestic violence through to dependence on male authority and touching a few choice points in between). It's entirely possible that the game itself avoids the obvious prurient interests and unfortunate implications, but the trailer, at least, doesn't really.
    -- Jacob J Driscoll, dating your mom.---
    "The king of the jungle was asleep in his car..."
    Most Recent Article: FREE ADVENTURE, DUDE!
    FINAL FANTASY ZERO
    finalfantasyzero.wikidot.com
    Also, game-style musings:
    daedaluswing.wikidot.com

  • #233
    Registered User
    Waghalter (Lvl 7)

    TanithT's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    223

    Ignore TanithT
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamikaze Midget View Post
    Yes. But that isn't a real answer. Because gender is also not irrelevant.
    Irrelevant, no. But in my opinion, gender should not be something that stops a hero from overcoming a challenge, or from facing that challenge in the first place.


    To put it a slightly different way: "Why can't a male character be central in this particular story about someone going through this brutal physical punishment?"
    Because Lara Croft isn't male, and they wanted to tell this particular kind of story about that specific character. If it's handled well and shows how she responds to adversity and challenge by becoming a strong hero, that might be a pretty good story. I don't know whether it will or not from just this trailer.


    The point being that the gender of your protagonist is a choice with consequences, not just a coin flip. If you put a male, or a transgendered person, in that role, the story should change, even if only subtly.
    I don't personally agree. The original movie Aliens was a very strong story, and Ripley was originally male. They decided to cast a woman, but they didn't change the script. It worked. I'm very glad they didn't change the script.


    So what is that choice doing in Tomb Raider? What effect does her being female play in the telling of that story. Why is it useful?
    If you turn that around and start with the character, it might make more sense. Here we are, game writers, and we need to tell a Lara Croft story. Let's pick a cool, gritty genre that has good stories in it to tell. How about some hard-knocks survival stuff as her backstory? Any reason we can't go there, because Lara is female? Nope, I'm not seeing one. Women can get knocked down and get up again and keep fighting, too.


    I don't think there can be gender-neutral stories. As long as gender exists, it is an influence, if only subtly, if only in the background, if only in the mind of the creators. Gender doesn't always need to be front-and-center. But it's always present, and it cannot be inconspicuously removed. The story of a woman getting tormented and worn down only to find strength from her father and overcome her adversity is different story from the story of the man getting tormented and worn down only to find strength from his father and overcome his adversity. The arcs and the meanings are quite different. Whether or not they should be, or are intended to be, they are. I think if you try to pretend that isn't the case, you get a sort of false perspective that does a disservice to everyone involved.
    I'm not pretending; this is my real perspective. I don't personally experience my gender as being very defining, or even all that defined. I'm not transgendered, but I'm not a very strongly gendered person, so I tend not to natively see things in a gender polarity. I rarely tell stories that are strongly gendered. I don't personally experience my gender as being present or relevant when I am going about my day to day activities. Obviously it influences how other people view and treat me socially, and much of the time I really wish it didn't. Your mileage may of course vary; this is just me.

    I'm puzzling over the two storylines you brought up and I'm not really seeing it. Unless you postulate that the relationship of son to father and daughter to father are that fundamentally different, or unless you add gender specific sexual elements to the adversity, it's the same story. At least it would be if I was telling it. You might tell it differently.


    Because humans have gender, it's hard (if not functionally impossible), IMO, to tell a believable human story without also telling a gendered story. Because your protagonist needs to have SOME gender, and because the gender they have will affect how the audience will see them, the good story uses the gender like they use every other element of that story: to help relay the message. Think of how Joss Whedon uses gender in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer series. It MATTERS that Buffy is a woman. She's not gender-neutral.
    Not a Buffy fan myself, but those are good points. I do think you can tell a perfectly good story with a non gendered protagonist (there's some sci-fi out there that does this), with gender-switching or gender fluid protagonists, and with a protagonist whose gender is pretty well interchangeable because it is primarily a human story. I'm definitely not suggesting that all stories are or should be non gendered, or interchangeably gendered, but there are some very good ones that can indeed work that way. At least there are for me, and I tend to like them better than gendered stories.

    In some ways, gaming is the ultimate interchangeable story; adventures are not written for any one gender or even class of adventurer. Anyone can interact with them and participate in the story. They are (I hope) not gender limited by nature.


    That's why I feel a little skeeved out at the Tomb Raider trailer. I feel like I'm invited to leer luridly at this abused woman. And BECAUSE it's a woman, it carries with it some specific cultural baggage (ranging from domestic violence through to dependence on male authority and touching a few choice points in between). It's entirely possible that the game itself avoids the obvious prurient interests and unfortunate implications, but the trailer, at least, doesn't really.
    Your feelings are completely valid and reasonable, and I hope that gaming companies are at least aware of the social context of the material they put out.

  • #234
    Registered User
    Waghalter (Lvl 7)

    TanithT's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    223

    Ignore TanithT
    Quote Originally Posted by fablestreams View Post
    This may be a great time to ask a question that has come up for us. In our interviews, we asked the question, How do you prefer someone refer to you? As a women, girl, lady?
    Totally depends on the context and the implied relationship, and on what others are being called.

    If someone refers to people as "Men and girls" the assumption is either that the males are adults and the females are minor children, or there is a power relationship being described. It would be the same if it were "Women and boys". Neither is really appropriate unless the ones being referred to as children actually are children.

    If everyone in the group is being addressed as "boys and girls", it's a non issue. "Guys and girls" is more problematic for me, because "guys" does not have the same diminishing connotation as "girls". "Guys and gals" might be a little more equivalent, since both are slang terms and neither specifically refers to a minor child or to someone who is childlike.

    "Ladies and gentlemen" is formal but fine. No diminishment on either side.


    Though we would never turn anyone away that is courageous enough to cast, we are looking for individuals that are game enthusiasts and embody the personality of the characters.
    Why do I get the feeling that if you have multiple applicants for a role, the skinny large breasted pinup model type is gonna get the role over the bespectacled nerd who is not conventionally attractive, even if she has mad credentials in gaming over the hotter looking model?

  • #235
    Registered User
    Defender (Lvl 8)



    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    1133 Clairemont Ave.
    Posts
    7,841

    Ignore Felon
    Quote Originally Posted by Dire Bare View Post
    This, right here, is your problem, IMO. You can't simply redefine words and expect folks to roll along with you. I don't care what "gorgeous" and "hot" mean to you. I know what they really mean, and if I didn't, I have a dictionary. Words have meaning.
    By "our definition of gorgeous", they don't mean definition in the literal sense. I think their position Fablestreams is falling back on is that beauty is in the eye in of the beholder.
    If you ever find yourself tempted to retort "And in other news, water is wet...", try to resist. This is the go-to quip of the obtuse.

  • #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Felon View Post
    By "our definition of gorgeous", they don't mean definition in the literal sense. I think their position Fablestreams is falling back on is that beauty is in the eye in of the beholder.
    I guess we'll know by the women they choose if they're going for the conventional definition of beauty or if they're specifically willing to choose female gamers who are kick-ass RPG players but don't necessarily have model physiques or faces.

    I'm not holding my breath on the latter option, mind you.

  • #237
    Registered User
    Waghalter (Lvl 7)

    TanithT's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    223

    Ignore TanithT
    Quote Originally Posted by Kynn View Post
    I guess we'll know by the women they choose if they're going for the conventional definition of beauty or if they're specifically willing to choose female gamers who are kick-ass RPG players but don't necessarily have model physiques or faces.

    I'm not holding my breath on the latter option, mind you.
    With you on this one.

    Because, this. Pretty much. At least that's my perspective on the thing. Not saying that a legitimate female badass can't be attractive, but she's not terribly likely to look like a pinup model.

    See, I don't even mind if a company is being honest about looking for sexy models to be their sales shills. What makes me feel like my intelligence is being insulted is when they try to tell us that's not what they're doing, they're only hiring these "gorgeous hot chicks" for their minds.

    And they only read Playboy for the articles, of course.
    Last edited by TanithT; Wednesday, 20th June, 2012 at 07:46 PM.

  • #238
    Moderator-Class Vessel
    Enchanter (Lvl 12)

    Lwaxy's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,432
    Blog Entries
    5

    Ignore Lwaxy
    I'd XP you for that story if I could. And I think I have to borrow Lady Aldana for an adventure idea.
    My Story Hour campaigns. What are they up to this week?

  • #239
    The Guvnor
    Orcus on an Off-Day (Lvl 22)

    Morrus's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    24,778
    Blog Entries
    4
    13th Age Superman Circvs Maximvs ENnies Pathfinder ZEITGEIST Doctor Who

    Ignore Morrus
    I'd have to agree that you can't choose existing loaded language and then later reveal that those words mean something different to you; especially in a press release.

    I mean, if I reply "when I said 'sexist' I meant 'likes chocolate cake'; that's what it means to me", you'd be right to laugh at me.

    In the same vein, if you use loaded phrases like "hot gamer chicks", especially in a - presumably - though out and considered press release, then you have to accept that those words mean something to the majority of people.

  • #240
    What's really important as far as I'm concerned is to find genuine gamers. They need to have the outgoing personality to engage potential customers, sell them on the game. This means knowing the system and the setting enough to answer questions as well as the ability to GM demo games.

    Of course, when it comes to this particular RPG, any candidate will have to learn it starting from scratch. It's a brand new game. But I'd rather they pick from the candidates who already have a strong tabletop roleplaying background and interest.

    I looked at several candidate videos (it's on their website) and I was kinda disappointed by the number entries where there is a total lack of tabletop experience. I curse the dilution of the term "RPG" to mean pretty much any game, these days.

    Playing Final Fantasy and playing Pathfinder are two very different endeavors.

    If they pick dedicated gamers who have a contagious passion for the hobby, they will go in the right direction.

  • + Log in or register to post
    Page 24 of 28 FirstFirst ... 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 LastLast

    Similar Threads

    1. Replies: 270
      Last Post: Sunday, 18th November, 2012, 10:26 PM
    2. Ultimate Magus Augmented Casting. Increased casting time?
      By Herzog in forum D&D and Pathfinder
      Replies: 16
      Last Post: Tuesday, 30th March, 2010, 06:34 PM
    3. Casting on the Defence / Combat Casting question
      By zlorf in forum D&D and Pathfinder
      Replies: 21
      Last Post: Tuesday, 11th October, 2005, 05:37 PM
    4. Black Company Casting Time.
      By Pangias in forum RPGs & Tabletop Gaming Discussion
      Replies: 5
      Last Post: Friday, 8th April, 2005, 10:45 AM
    5. Project Genesys
      By Sniktch in forum Story Hour
      Replies: 36
      Last Post: Saturday, 3rd July, 2004, 09:05 AM

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •