New RPG Company Casting All Women for Genesys

nnms

First Post
I think what we're seeing here is a subculture collision. I'm not a cosplayer myself, but I do know a bunch and have helped with some mould making, vacuum forming and props reproductions for some of the local cosplayers.

It's a totally different approach to gamer culture than the traditional RPG crowd. So I'm not surprised that this is ruffling some feathers here.
 

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hamstertamer

First Post
I don't see anything creepy about it. They sell beer, cars, TV shows, magazines, boats, dog food etc. in the same manner (images of sexy women). So getting upset about the sexy girl marketing strategy of an American game company is ridiculous. If the "Gamer Girls" think there is something wrong with it, then they won't go. Why not let them decide for themselves. It's probably a given that there are some female gamers out there that have a fantasy of being a model too (just like female non-gamers) or they just want to draw attention to themselves for fun. You can see this attitude from some women at gaming/comic book conventions.

I sometimes believe there are people out there that can't come to terms with the decisions that some women make for themselves. Thus they are accusatory of the photographer/artist but not of the model.
 

TanithT

First Post
I don't see anything creepy about it. They sell beer, cars, TV shows, magazines, boats, dog food etc. in the same manner (images of sexy women). So getting upset about the sexy girl marketing strategy of an American game company is ridiculous.

Let me see if I can even begin to explain why a lot of people, men and women, are saying that the "sexy girl/hot chick" thing creeps them out and makes them feel uncomfortable, especially when it is brought into our own nerd/geek/gamer subculture.

I have no problems with porn or sex work. None at all. Actually I think it's great, and I have friends in the sex industry whom I wholeheartedly support. Women should have every right to be openly sexual when they choose to be around other consenting adults, without being shamed, penalized, attacked or harassed for it. I think everyone should have the right to be sexual for money if they want to be, on the premise that if you own it, you get to rent it. Nobody should be able to say boo about that. And that's not what I'm saying.

The problem I have is when the sexual depictions of females become knee-jerk and automatic, to the point that "female" always equals "sexualized depiction" and "sexualized treatment/language to refer to them". Because that's when it starts to spill over generally onto women who are *not* choosing or consenting to be sexual in that time or in that place.

If I am sitting down at a gaming table, and the atmosphere I've just walked into is one where women are invariably sexualized - no exceptions, we're all "girls" or "chicks" or pick your condescending perjorative, always depicted primarily in terms of our sex appeal, and viewed more as passive objects to be acted on than as powerful actors ourselves - I'm going to feel creeped out. I am going to consider this to be creepy behavior.

I get that maybe you won't feel the same way. Possibly you don't have the same experience of being bombarded with shaming media messages, being catcalled on the street by strangers, feeling unsafe walking alone at night, being judged on your shoes and your hair and whether you smile pretty for the boys even when you don't effing feel like smiling. Our experiences may be different, and that's okay. That certainly doesn't make you a bad person. But if your feelings and experiences are that different from mine, I would simply ask that you listen and think for just a moment how it feels to be the product of these experiences.

How you might react if all these things were true for you in mainstream culture, and you got treated to a little more of the same at the gaming table that was supposed to be your refuge from the cool-kid culture, not one more place to be judged for not being popular enough or pretty enough?

Yeah, the weather outside is frightful. That's why I'm an out-and-proud nerd, and why I prefer hanging out with other nerds and geeks and gamers who don't play the mainstream popularity rat race game. I am not thrilled that these enterprising folks are deliberately taking the worst part of mainstream popularity culture and trying to bring it to my gaming table. It is very likely to spill over into the language other gamers use and the social attitudes they have towards me, another gamer who happens to be female.

Yes, I am creeped out by this. I respect that other people's experiences and feelings may be different, but these are mine.


If the "Gamer Girls" think there is something wrong with it, then they won't go. Why not let them decide for themselves. It's probably a given that there are some female gamers out there that have a fantasy of being a model too (just like female non-gamers) or they just want to draw attention to themselves for fun. You can see this attitude from some women at gaming/comic book conventions.

I sometimes believe there are people out there that can't come to terms with the decisions that some women make for themselves. Thus they are accusatory of the photographer/artist but not of the model.
The problem is not the decisions that women make for themselves when they consent to be sexualized because they think it is fun. That is not actually a problem. The problem is presenting the overall sexualization of women in a social context that assumes that this condition must be true all the time, for all women, even in times and places where it is not consensual or appropriate.

When I say "not appropriate" I mean when she's supposedly fighting a remorhaz or scouting in the arctic wilderness while dressed like a hooker with bills due. Or when she's just another gamer who happens to be female but does not consent to being sexualized. If you wanna do porn, do porn, but there is a difference between adults choosing to create and enjoy porn (nothing wrong here) and the generic 'pornification' of female imagery to the point that it's pretty much a default setting (lots wrong here).

Porn is good, mmkay, but automatically porn-ifying a large percentage of female character depictions, or worse, depictions of actual female gamers, not so much. I think there are real and serious social consequences to doing this, and I personally do not feel comfortable at a gaming table where this is happening.

You don't have to feel the same way, but if people - especially women - are telling you that yes, this DOES genuinely make them feel creeped out and uncomfortable - it's worth listening to rather than dismissively sneering at because it doesn't trouble you any.

If you take home no other message from this post, please consider this. When a woman tells you "That behavior is creepy - it makes me feel uncomfortable and creeped out," and you respond, "You shouldn't feel that way, your feeling is invalid, it's not really creepy at all," guess what -

THAT IS CREEPY.

That is really, truly, seriously creepy, because it it shows that you think your right to tell us how we should feel and what behavior should be okay trumps our right to feel that way. It's creepy specifically because I don't feel safe or comfortable around people who think that way and behave that way. Someone who thinks that his right (or society's right in general) to make me feel uncomfortable with sexual behavior trumps my right to say that I'm uncomfortable is a scary, creepy person.

That's all. If you don't want to be that scary, creepy person, please listen when a woman says, "That's creepy." Whether you feel the same way or not, the fact is that she does, and you aren't going to fix that by making her feel even more uncomfortable and casually dismissing her discomfort.
 
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Hello Morrus,

My name is Lynnette, and I am one of the owners of Fable Streams.

Well, Morrus didn't respond, so I will; Hello Lynnette!

We are in fact looking for our definition of a "gorgeous women." The type of "gorgeous women" we are exclusively looking for are strong, independent women, who break stereotypes and embody the true heart of a gamer. Why can't girl gamers be referred to as "gorgeous?!" I personally know many girl gamers who not only serve as GMs, but can also show everyone at the table a thing or two about gaming.

That's all well and good but... you're doing it wrong. That's really the crux of the problem; you are doing it wrong. Basically, what it looks like you are doing is lining up eye-candy for the boys who will be purchasing your new RPG. MAYBE that's not your intent, and PERHAPS some individuals on this thread should give you the benefit of the doubt - but being a fair minded person myself, I find it hard to make that argument for you.

So what's a better way forward? Instead of putting women in the artwork, why not put women in the drivers seat and let them design the thing? There is no question that the number of male game designers out-number female designers and, being a married man, I realize that women have a very different point of view then men (It's subtle, but it exists.) Does this carry over into game design? You bet your dwarven axe it does!

WHAT I'M NOT SAYING: I'm not saying to create Desperate Housewives the RPG!!! Or Sex in the City RPG!!! I'm saying to let women gamers decide on the mechanics and setting - let them design a fully fleshed out RPG.

We are only looking for women who actually enjoy playing or are exited about learning to play the same games that I, along with thousands of other women enjoy playing. The mainstream media, television, and film have dedicated many years to portraying gamers as unattractive introverted people, who do not enjoy interacting with others. A perfect example is Raj from the Big Bang Theory, who can't even speak to women unless he has a drink. Fable Streams is about breaking those stereotypes.

HEY! And what's wrong with Big Bang Theory!? :mad:

Stereotypes are worn down by proof of the contrary, not by utilizing a different stereotype to make your case. Are female gamers sexy, beautiful, and vivacious? Oh hell yeah! But do they need to show skin to prove it? No. However, looking at the header-image for your website, I've got to think that is what you are looking for; a sex object.

We have a company created by gamers for gamers, dedicated to sparking a movement to break mainstream stereotypes associated with the gaming community. We look forward to hosting our fellow gamers at Q Lounge this Saturday for our casting event and launch party. As gamers, shouldn't we be allowed to have a night out at a club, enjoy great music and have a cocktail, two or maybe even three. For too long gamers have been hiding—no more! Gamers Assemble!

Cool. That's all good. And I hope you succeed in this difficult market. However, I hope you come back to this thread and think about what has been said here, if not respond to it with candor and humility. This is a PR nightmare in the making, but it still isn't too late to undo the damage that has been done.
 

TanithT

First Post
So what's a better way forward? Instead of putting women in the artwork, why not put women in the drivers seat and let them design the thing? There is no question that the number of male game designers out-number female designers and, being a married man, I realize that women have a very different point of view then men (It's subtle, but it exists.) Does this carry over into game design? You bet your dwarven axe it does!

Unfortunately, the casting call is about women - excuse me, 'girls' - who can present well on video as "hot gamer chicks". No mention is made of these women, er, girls, participating in the game design at all. They get handed characters to play, and somebody does their costuming and makeup and hair.

Unless I'm totally wrong here, and please feel free to correct me if I am, the casting call is strictly for models/actresses who are "hot chicks", and the "girls" are not being invited or expected to participate in any of the game design aspects at all.

'Cuz, yaknow, that's just not what hot chicks are for. Can't imagine why people are getting annoyed about the underlying assumptions, here.
 

Unfortunately, the casting call is about women - excuse me, 'girls' - who can present well on video as "hot gamer chicks". No mention is made of these women, er, girls, participating in the game design at all. They get handed characters to play, and somebody does their costuming and makeup and hair.

Unless I'm totally wrong here, and please feel free to correct me if I am, the casting call is strictly for models/actresses who are "hot chicks", and the "girls" are not being invited or expected to participate in any of the game design aspects at all.

'Cuz, yaknow, that's just not what hot chicks are for. Can't imagine why people are getting annoyed about the underlying assumptions, here.

No - you're right. If they really just wanted models, they should have just said "models;" it would have been less offensive. Truth is, I could have written a better press release and not change the over all meaning, without being offensive or stereotyping.

Then again, it is possible that this is just a publicity stunt. Negative attention is still attention - in which case we're giving them exactly what they are asking for right now. It's not a good long-term business strategy, but when you have nothing else to go on, shock will at least get you name recognition for a short period of time.

My point was that if they really wanted to engage female gamers, there are far better ways to do it. A casting call for "Hawt Chix" is a better dog whistle for young adult males and old pervy men (guilty).

To put it another way, if you want to "brings all the boys to the yard," you use your "milk shake." If you want to Aretha's money, on the other hand, you have to give her a little R-E-S-P-E-C-T.
 

TanithT

First Post
My point was that if they really wanted to engage female gamers, there are far better ways to do it. A casting call for "Hawt Chix" is a better dog whistle for young adult males and old pervy men (guilty).

Is fairly clear to me that they do not want to engage female gamers, except to hire a few as pinup models to help sell the product to male gamers.

If they wanted to engage or even just not totally creep out, insult and alienate female gamers, they would cut out the "hot chick" crap and replace it with verbiage about how much they appreciate strong, smart, accomplished women who want to play powerful, iconic characters and become the 'face' of their new gaming system. Perhaps with some actual input from these respected, highly accomplished gamers on the mechanics of the system, the creative setting, etc.

It certainly could have been done without making it obvious that 'gamer chicks' are valued solely for their "hotness" and for their willingness to be submissive and childlike (eg, girls rather than women). But that's not how they chose to do it. Every bit of verbiage in their ad was pretty much calculated to separate the girls from the men. The "hot gamer chicks" are the packaged product, not the gamers who will be using the product.

So yeah, thoroughly creeped out, and not super optimistic about the success of any company whose marketing is that unprofessional.
 

Stacie GmrGrl

Adventurer
I read it...read it again, and I just don't get it...

It's a crock of... well, I can't say that word, but I don't think this is for a pen n paper RPG. Maybe a computer game... but I won't pay a cent towards it.

I will pass.
 


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