Advanced Race Guide - Discussion

Scott DeWar · Jun 28, 2012

it has potential. I like it too!

Satin Knights · Jun 30, 2012

Okay, here's a question. How close do you have to be to the race to use the racial equipment?

Tasanto, when Nysys is summoned, is for all intents and purposes, catfolk. See, they are already here!! The softpaw boots and claw blades both fit the character design well. If he didn't spend his gold on a wand, Tasanto could have afforded the magical Daredevil Softpaw boots. And yes, he eventually wants some, although he may need two sets.

Are we going strict racial requirement? Logically reasonable?
It is reasonable to commission the crafting of Daredevil Softpaw boots as a quad set instead of a pair?

PS. Gragnor wants them too.

Qik · Jun 30, 2012

The argument against doing so is, of course, the slippery slope argument. At least some of these feats and archetypes could be argued to work with other races. I see no reason why the Wild Caller couldn't work with gnomes (makes more sense than half-elves to me, in fact). Why is the Deadly Courtesan restricted to Vishkanya? Etc.

Now, am I against opening this door? Not entirely. Does racially-restricted equipment make sense? In some instances, but definitely not all - there's no good reason why claw blades be restricted to Catfolk, for example. But, anytime someone raises the idea of bending RAW, I start to wonder about how far we bend.

I think the best argument for removing racial restrictions on equipment on at least a limited basis is that we likely won't be approving even a majority of the races added by the ARG. It'd be nice to still have access to some of the new content associated with those races, or, conversely, to feel like we can decide whether to add a race based on itself, removed from its unique mechanics such as archetypes, equipment, etc. But again, if we start down this path, I wonder why we can't go further. I'd personally like to see many less racial restrictions on some of the archetypes and feats in this book, which is, of course, in direct contrast to the ARG's spirit.

Just some initial thoughts. Also - anytime SK suggests a ruling against RAW, it makes me inherently nervous. Because he's generally such a stickler for them.

Satin Knights · Jun 30, 2012

I am not actually going against RAW on either of those items. The claw blades are useable only by catfolk that have natural weapon (claws) that does d4 damage. Well, other races have natural weapon (claws) too.

The boots, well, they are boots built for feline feet. Unlike the Cat's Eye Crown, the crafter of the item that does not even have to be a catfolk. The wearer doesn't need to be catfolk either, just have feline feet.

Given, "The following options are available to catfolk. At the GM’s discretion, other appropriate races may make use of some of these new rules." It is the general case of "are we going to go strict with races, or go with logically compatible?" Paizo loves to leave things open-ended and up to the GM discretion. Well, that falls to us judges.

It is messy, but I am leaning towards logically compatible.

And, I think the decision should be separated out by areas as well.
Equipment: mundane, big yes
Equipment: magical, highly likely yes, haven't read everything.
Spells: leaning towards an arbitrary no.
Feats: Already no by RAW. Well, the feats list the race as a prereq, no. If it doesn't specify a race, yes it can be open.
Archetypes: No. That's the purpose of the book.

sunshadow21 · Jun 30, 2012

The big thing I see with equipment is if the races are assumed to be present as NPCs or not. If they are, the equipment would technically be available to any who could use it if one could find the right supplier, and it's safe to assume that the Pearl could. If not, then we would need some kind of reason of why it's available and who came up up with it.

Spells, I'd say allow the ones for the races we approve, but not the others. They are too specific for the headaches it would cause if we allowed them.

Feats, same as the spells, with the caveat that any have only non-racial pre-reqs could be allowed without any real problems that I can see.

Qik · Jun 30, 2012

Yeah, what I wrote above had a strict RAW interpretation of "Race X has access to the following items." I do agree that there is logical transfer-ability, but as I said, I think that exists in regards to areas as well.

I'd love to have the Fire Brand alchemist discovery available for any race, not just Goblins. There's no more reason for this discovery to be restricted to Goblins than there is for claw blades to be restricted to Catfolk. At the very least, Gnomes with the Pyromancer trait should be able to take it, but again, even this restriction doesn't make sense to me. I think there are a notable handful of archetypes and class abilities to which this statement applies.

I'm not convinced that you can fluff your eidolon for the purposes of qualifying for racially restricted equipment. I interpret the spirit of those restrictions to remain specific to that race (setting aside the potential for GM discretion).

That said, that's just me being a Grumpy Gus. I'm fine with messy, but I think my above slippery slope point is a valid one. Personally, I'd be fine traveling further along that slope than the equipment (such as in the alchemist's discovery example), and, in fact, would prefer to do so once that door gets opened. But I our opening of the door itself needs to be considered.

jkason · Jul 2, 2012

I sort of think any PC-race equipment should be available for all, with non-PC race equipment restricted / on a per-proposal basis, but I don't have a particularly cogent reason for that other than not wanting the headache of trying to keep track of which race has access to which equipment. It's either in, or it's out, and no one has to go digging around to figure out if something is on the halfling list or the gnome list or whatever.

I'd be inclined to ask for proposals on opening up specific archetypes or feats, myself, probably for similarly selfish reasons.

Mind you, having said that, I've been toying with (when the time comes to fully propose races) suggesting we add a modified Suli race to PCs in lieu of four separate races to cover the elementals, something like this:

* PC Suli's must take the Energy Strike alternate racial trait. Depending on the element she chooses, a Suli gains access to racial archetypes and feats as follows: Fire=Ifrit, Cold=Undine, Acid=Oread, Electricity=Sylph.

Basically, it solved two problems for me. Firstly, it's hard to add one element without adding the others, but four fully 'distinct' races which are basically all variations on the elemental theme seems a bit excessive to me. On the other hand, the base Suli ability (four resistances and on-the-fly variable energy damage) seems overpowered to me, as well.

Essentially, the modified Suli would work in Illi Esse's planar intersection stuff, allow for elemental flavors of choice, but condense it into a single 'had an elemental parent' race with more limited-to-theme abilities.

Qik · Jul 2, 2012

While I completely see the logic behind your suggestion, jk, I would probably end up arguing against it.

I've been really taken by some of the elemental races in the ARG (much to my surprise, I'll add - for some reason, they've always struck me as gimmicky until now), and would hate to see them get replaced/genericized. There's just so much that is unique and interesting to them which reflects their distinct origins that I'd hate to see that go in favor of a blanket "resistance against X energy, ability to use X energy," etc. I like that Ifrits are fiery, charismatic, dexterous, and inclined towards foolishness, and I like that Oreads are socially awkward but stout and wise. I think the elemental races offer something really unique to the game, and to LPF, and would hate to see them lose some of that uniqueness.

Just my initial reaction, for what it's worth. I totally see the practical benefits of your suggestion, jk, but nevertheless, the impractical-ness in me has hopes for including the elemental races in LPF.

sunshadow21 · Jul 2, 2012

I, too, would rather see the individual elemental races allowed rather than one white washed generic one. They really are distinct from each other in ways that no single race would ever manage to cover.

Maidhc O Casain · Jul 3, 2012

I've really become enamored of the Strix - I'm likely jumping the gun a little, but I've got some ideas for a treatment for them that I've started to put together into a (hopefully) coherent whole.