Advanced Race Guide - Discussion

Qik · Jul 3, 2012

Well I guess the question is - do we want to just approve races based on individual proposals? Or do we want to try and do them as a group.

It seems like everyone has been drawn to different races, so it's hard to know what's the best way to approach doing this.

GlassEye · Jul 3, 2012

I would suggest reviewing materials for the races we already have approved. Then looking at the material for races that have been referenced already in LPF and see if we want to include that as player options. Then look into adding other race options for players. The first could (theoretically) be accomplished fairly quickly; the second and third could be worked on at the same time.

Qik · Jul 3, 2012

That sounds good.

Some of us mentioned our concerns back on pg 3 (on my settings, anyway). For me, it was the merfolk strongtail racial trait (adds 10' to a merfolk's landspeed at the expense of slowing their swim speed) and the tiefling's fiendish vessel archetype, which seems too evil-centric for LPF for me. I've already thrown my NO in for these two.

sunshadow21 · Jul 3, 2012

I think the material on existing races seems to be more or less agreed upon, so perhaps the judges want to go ahead and vote on at the alternate racial features and class bonuses, freeing up discussion for the remainder of the concerns.

jkason · Jul 3, 2012

Had some more thoughts on elemental races, but I'll table for now so we can get down to nitty-gritty on the existing races.

To try to get things in one place, I'll quote my earlier posts. These were the elements that had me at least mildly concerned. I don't know that I want to vote them all down, but I did want to bring them to the attention of folk with stronger balance sense than me. I'm already assuming the exclusion of material that depends on previously-excluded rules (firearms, crafting):

jkason said:
* Forgemaster (Dwarf archetypes, pg. 16) has multiple craft-based abilities. They seem to be additions rather than replacements, so I’m not sure it hurts the archetype to just dump them.

* Gauntlets of Skill at Arms (Elven Magic Equipment, pg. 28): fluff text says "gloves" all over the place. I'm assuming this is a typo.

* Gloves of Elvenkind (Elven Magic Equipment, pg. 29): +5 seems like a large bonus for less than 10,000 gp, but the DCs on casting defensively seem pretty steep, anyway, and there aren't a lot of other ways to boost your bonus, so this might not be out of line.

* Knack w/ Poison (Gnome Racial Alt, pg. 32): One of the benefits here is to a craft skill, which is probably why one of its replaced elements is Obsessive. I'm wondering if the LPF version should just remove the craft bonus and only replace Illusion Resistance? Or is a bonus vs. poison good enough that it needs a higher cost?

* Obsession Log (Gnome Equipment, pg. 37): Since we changed the racial trait, I'm inclined to just nix this piece of equipment, though I suppose it could always just be a gnome-fluffed MW tool for a Gnome's racially-bonused skill.

* Paragon Surge (Half-Elf spell, pg. 48). +2 to two ability scores and any feat (with prereq restrictions) seems like a lot to get for a minute / level. It only works on half-elves, but does seem like there's some spamming potential for a spontaneous-caster half-elf. Maybe I just have a poor sense of the 'circumstantial' feats, though, and this isn't nearly as useful as I think it is.

* The flavor of the Blood God Disciple (Half-Orc archetypes, pg. 53) abilities might be questionable, especially given that, as written, the eidolon could be munching on helpless foes. PC's can (and do) still coup-de-grace, though, so I'm not sure this isn't just a more graphic instance of an already-occurring practice.

* Resilient Brute (Half-Orc Feats, pg. 57): I'm split on this one. Crits are rare enough that you probably don't need to use this more than once a day, so the limit doesn't seem like much of a limit to me. On the other hand, the rarity of crits may make its own case for the power level of the feat.

* Half-blood Extraction (Half-Orc spells, pg. 59): If I'm reading this right, the spell permanently (instantaneous duration) changes a half-orc (playable race) into an orc (non-playable race). I'm inclined to nix it for that reason, rather than argue with folk about a spell that turns their PC into an NPC. I suppose, though, we should take a hard look at the Reincarnate spell if my argument stands, since it has the potential to do the same thing (though the target race is randomized in that case).

* Risky Striker (Halfling feats, pg. 67): The basic feat seems like a modified Power Attack mechanic, but the scaling on this feat only increases the bonus (to damage), without increasing the penalty (to AC). Seems off to me.

jkason said:
* Long-Nose Form, Tengu Wings, and Tengu Raven Form (Tengu feats, pg 166-7): They don't seem overpowered from a crunch perspective, I suppose, but it does seem odd that a non-SLA race has so many SLA feats available. It may work with the LPF fluff, though, where Tengus were originally servants to a god (and thus they might conceivably retain a measure of otherworldly magic?).

* Fiendish Vessel (Tiefling Archetype, pg 171): Probably goes without saying, but since the archetype requires a fiendish patron and exact alignment match, I think it should be out of bounds for PCs under the 'no evil characters' rule. Honestly, even if you could create a neutral fiend as your patron, I think the intent of the archetype is such that I'm not especially comfortable with it for PCs.

* Strongtail (Merfolk Alt trait, pg 195): I think I've heard more than enough good argument against this trait. Losing speed in a little-used movement mode for increasing one you use all the time doesn't really seem like much of a trade-off outside of aquatic campaigns.

Qik · Jul 3, 2012

Let's see how many of these I can get to in one sitting before my will fails.

- Risky Striker: Its conditional nature makes me unworried: opponents will need to be large at the least. I don't mind halflings getting a conditional bonus to melee damage. I think it's fine.

- Half-blood Extraction: Its not something that would have jumped out at me, but you make some good points. I'm in the process of being convinced it's problematic for LPF.

- Resilient Brute: I think it's fine.

- Blood God Disciple: I would be inclined to nix this one. It's just too borderline, and we tend to err on the side of caution here. I'm not sure I want a corpse-munching eidolon in LPF's ranks.

- Paragon Surge: I see the possible concern, but I'm not worried by it. It's high enough level, and it's only minute/level. I could probably be convinced otherwise, though.

- Obsession Log: Agree that there's no real need for it in LPF, given our take on Obsession.

- Knack with Poison: I'd agree with only having it replace Illusion Resistance given our ban on crafting.

- Gloves of Elvenkind: Again, I can see the possible concerns, but I think it's fine.

- Gauntlets of Skill at Arms: Looks like "gloves" is a typo to me, too.

- Forgemaster: The archetype obviously loses some gusto without the crafting abilities, but not much we can do about that. Anybody else find it weird that the Runeforger is 3+Int, instead of 3+Wis times a day?

jkason · Jul 3, 2012

Qik said:
Let's see how many of these I can get to in one sitting before my will fails.

Yeah. Sorry. It's kind of a long list. I tend to over-think things when I'm trying to be 'judge-y'.

Paragon Surge: I see the possible concern, but I'm not worried by it. It's high enough level, and it's only minute/level. I could probably be convinced otherwise, though.

I hadn't come up with a specific case, myself, but I ran across this thread on the Paizo boards when I was skimming to see what they felt was overpowered.

Essentially, paragon surge lets a half-elf sorcerer (and in a later example in the thread, possibly also an oracle) dynamically pick any spell from the sorc/wiz list (or even any two) if the feat they choose is Expanded Arcana. Sage-blooded sorcerers might even get an additional casting (negating the 'spell tax') depending on their Int stat before casting, and folks with access to quickened versions of the spell don't even have to wait an extra round to start using their cherry-picked temp spell.

At this point, folks may feel sorcerers are sufficiently underpowered vs. wizards/witches/summoners that it doesn't matter, but that scenario does seem like a bit of an auto-win to me.

sunshadow21 · Jul 3, 2012

jkason said:
Essentially, paragon surge lets a half-elf sorcerer (and in a later example in the thread, possibly also an oracle) dynamically pick any spell from the sorc/wiz list (or even any two) if the feat they choose is Expanded Arcana. Sage-blooded sorcerers might even get an additional casting (negating the 'spell tax') depending on their Int stat before casting, and folks with access to quickened versions of the spell don't even have to wait an extra round to start using their cherry-picked temp spell.

At this point, folks may feel sorcerers are sufficiently underpowered vs. wizards/witches/summoners that it doesn't matter, but that scenario does seem like a bit of an auto-win to me.

My only thought is that is a lot of ifs and specific requirements to pull it off to it's maximum output. By itself, for the level of the spell, it's not particularly overpowered, and if you have paid the prereqs for quicken spell, which are notable enough you probably don't even have quicken spell when you first get access to this spell, you deserve to reap the benefits. The spell itself only increases the potential of having more spells to choose from; it does not give you added ability to cast them any faster. Given that you probably aren't going to be wasting time in combat casting this spell without the heavy investment of feats for quicken spell, most builds are effectively down one choice for combat, and out of combat, where your output is much weaker, it's a minor boost at best, and one in or out of combat that most of the time would be less cost effective than letting one of the other party members handle the problem.

Qik · Jul 3, 2012

I'd seen the Paizo thread too, and my reaction thus far is also relatively subdued.

It does have the potential for abuse in this one specific manner, but I would have a hard time banning the spell just for this one specific problem. That said, it's certainly one of those gray cases worth considering.

The spell momentarily gives a sorcerer access to any spell they want. I guess the reason I have a hard time considering this to be problematic is because those spells are already available to a wizard, so the effect of those spells doesn't threaten to break the game or create an overly powerful character. Is it a boost for a higher level sorcerer's flexibility? Absolutely. I guess that just doesn't concern me. After all, wizard's are always encroaching on the sorcerer's territory (with the flexibility of a bonded item, Greater Spell Specialization, and the like).

Again, these are the kinds of things worth bringing up. I just don't think this spell is problematic even with the aforementioned loophole in mind.

jackslate45 · Jul 10, 2012

sunshadow21 said:
I think the material on existing races seems to be more or less agreed upon, so perhaps the judges want to go ahead and vote on at the alternate racial features and class bonuses, freeing up discussion for the remainder of the concerns.

Did we get an actual vote on this started? I was building my 3rd character, and loved the class bonus Half orc's got for monks. Additional Stunning Fists per day? yes please.