Advanced Race Guide - Discussion
- Thread starter jkason
- Start date
Systole
First Post
I looked at the Paragon Surge/Half-Elf sorcerer combo, and to be honest, I don't think it's overpowered. I think it's stupid, but not overpowered. Basically, you're using a 3rd level spell to cast a spell not on your list of spells known. You know how else a sorcerer can cast a spell not on your list of spells known?[sblock=The answer!]He uses a scroll.[/sblock]It's a neat trick, but it's not broken. Look, most of the time, a sorcerer has all the tools he needs already in his spells known. Once in a while, he has to go to his handy haversack. Once in a very, very great while, what he needs isn't in his handy haversack. Therefore, once in a very, very great while, this is useful.
On the other hand,
ing Wild Caller. I will tell you right now, I will go utterly batshit ing ballistic if LPF approves Wild Caller. At 20th level, a normal eidolon has 26 evolution points. A half-elf summoner who takes the already utterly broken favored class bonus will have 31. A Wild Caller will have 36, with the tradeoff being that the you can't pick any of the really crappy evolutions. Oh noes! Undead Appearance!? Curses, I really wanted that P.O.S. evolution!
Summoners are already one of the most overpowered classes in PF. I do not think we need an archetype that makes them 38.5% more broken.
On the other hand,
ing Wild Caller. I will tell you right now, I will go utterly batshit ing ballistic if LPF approves Wild Caller. At 20th level, a normal eidolon has 26 evolution points. A half-elf summoner who takes the already utterly broken favored class bonus will have 31. A Wild Caller will have 36, with the tradeoff being that the you can't pick any of the really crappy evolutions. Oh noes! Undead Appearance!? Curses, I really wanted that P.O.S. evolution! Summoners are already one of the most overpowered classes in PF. I do not think we need an archetype that makes them 38.5% more broken.
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Since there are obviously a lot of different elements of the ARG we're discussing in here, rather than voting on some at one point in this thread and others later, would it be advisable to keep this for ongoing discussion without necessarily a restriction, then create proposal threads for those areas we feel might be ready for approval or not?
From my perspective, the breakdown is something like this:
For already-approved races:
1) Alternate Racial traits
2) Racial Archetypes
3) Racial Feats
4) Racial Equipment
5) Racial Spells
We might combine feats/equipment/spells, but I do think the alt traits and archetypes are involved enough that they might warrant their own separate proposal threads.
Once we've given a thumbs up or down to each of those areas, then I think we get to any races we want to add, though I'm not sure if that should be a single approval thread, or if we want to make separate threads for each race we want to add. I'm inclined toward the latter, since ostensibly part of the approval would be viably integrating the race, whether through retcon or 'recent contact.'
From my perspective, the breakdown is something like this:
For already-approved races:
1) Alternate Racial traits
2) Racial Archetypes
3) Racial Feats
4) Racial Equipment
5) Racial Spells
We might combine feats/equipment/spells, but I do think the alt traits and archetypes are involved enough that they might warrant their own separate proposal threads.
Once we've given a thumbs up or down to each of those areas, then I think we get to any races we want to add, though I'm not sure if that should be a single approval thread, or if we want to make separate threads for each race we want to add. I'm inclined toward the latter, since ostensibly part of the approval would be viably integrating the race, whether through retcon or 'recent contact.'
vmaaxt
First Post
My 2cp:
I realize that I may not have much of a say here, but it looks like to me that everybody seems to be okay with the alternate racial traits for already approved races (discounting Strongtail). Would it be unreasonable to put forth a proposal for those traits only? Not the archetypes, but only alternate traits for species that already are PC approved.
I think the ARG has enough new stuff in it that significantly defies convention that the easiest way to handle it is in groups:
For PC Races:
1 Alternate Traits
2 Archetypes
Non-PC Races
3 Elemental races
4 Animal Races
5 "Dark" Races
6 Monstrous Races
7 The Rest, done on a case by case basis
I realize that I may not have much of a say here, but it looks like to me that everybody seems to be okay with the alternate racial traits for already approved races (discounting Strongtail). Would it be unreasonable to put forth a proposal for those traits only? Not the archetypes, but only alternate traits for species that already are PC approved.
I think the ARG has enough new stuff in it that significantly defies convention that the easiest way to handle it is in groups:
For PC Races:
1 Alternate Traits
2 Archetypes
Non-PC Races
3 Elemental races
4 Animal Races
5 "Dark" Races
6 Monstrous Races
7 The Rest, done on a case by case basis
Qik
First Post
Personally, I'd think that we could do the new material for approved races in a single thread. Based on what's been raised here, there only seem to be a handful of things worth discussing/debating spread out among the spells, feats, archetypes, etc of the new races. As for equipment, I say we just dis/approve it first, then get to SK's notion of approving (some?) items for wider use.
I say we start there, and see how it goes.
I say we start there, and see how it goes.
vmaaxt
First Post
I would like to officially make a proposal for the Alternate race traits and Archetypes from the Advanced Race Guide, for Existing PC approved races only. I would like to further exclude the following from approval:
Strongtail (merfolk)
Blood God Disciple (half-orc)
Wild Caller (half-elf)
Strongtail (merfolk)
Blood God Disciple (half-orc)
Wild Caller (half-elf)
DalkonCledwin
First Post
hey guys, I kind of have a very strong interest in seeing the issue of Racial Equipment Voted on in here especially for the core races. Because I have already purchased an Elven Family Arcane Workbook for Fae'shiel (which technically should be considered as handed down to her from her family). But since I think that is from the ARG, I kind of need approval for her to actually use the darn book which I kind of already used in one roll. So before that roll becomes canon in an adventure I need the approval here if that is okay?
Any work towards making that kind of detail actually approved I would appreciate. The Elven Family Arcane Workbook is really no different in utilization from the Codex of Sapo, except that it grants the bonus to spellcraft and it grants an additional +2 bonus (on top of the initial +2 bonus) if the individual spends 1d4 hours studying the book instead of the base 1d4 rounds studying the book. So I don't see how that could be really problematic.
Any work towards making that kind of detail actually approved I would appreciate. The Elven Family Arcane Workbook is really no different in utilization from the Codex of Sapo, except that it grants the bonus to spellcraft and it grants an additional +2 bonus (on top of the initial +2 bonus) if the individual spends 1d4 hours studying the book instead of the base 1d4 rounds studying the book. So I don't see how that could be really problematic.
Since this thread's so long and covers a lot of non-relevant stuff, I'm going to start a new proposal thread for just the already-approved races. Thanks for the bump.
Ugh. I didn't notice that was from ARG when I reviewed her, or I'd have brought it up then. Apologies for that. I'm just rolling everything (including equipment) into the new proposal thread. I'm hoping a fresh thread with a bit more focus will be easier to vote on.
Umbriere Moonwhisper
Explorer
My 2 Copper pieces
i really have no problems with any of the advanced races, as long as they don't come from chapter 4.
i don't see an issue with strongtail. a medium creature with a 15 foot land speed is still slower than a darn halfling. medium and heavy armor slows it down to only 10. they are still having to double move to do what most other races of the same size can do in a single move.
in fact, i would make strongtail a requirement for merfolk. spending 6 turns to close up to a foe the human can reach in one is a pretty stupid drawback.
not every merfolk should be forced to be a barbarian, travel domain cleric, or metal/flames oracle. 15 ft move before armor is enough of a penalty. considering most PCs will have 30. that can be a major difference.
i wouldn't even force strix to take clipped wings, flight isn't really any more powerful than walking. unless you are outdoors on the open plains. most dungeons have low ceilings to make flight impractical, and even if you could bypass traps with flight, all you are doing is saving yourself a handful of hit points and happy stick charges. you pay a price in lower attributes and in having less overall racial powers to work with.
i really have no problems with any of the advanced races, as long as they don't come from chapter 4.
i don't see an issue with strongtail. a medium creature with a 15 foot land speed is still slower than a darn halfling. medium and heavy armor slows it down to only 10. they are still having to double move to do what most other races of the same size can do in a single move.
in fact, i would make strongtail a requirement for merfolk. spending 6 turns to close up to a foe the human can reach in one is a pretty stupid drawback.
not every merfolk should be forced to be a barbarian, travel domain cleric, or metal/flames oracle. 15 ft move before armor is enough of a penalty. considering most PCs will have 30. that can be a major difference.
i wouldn't even force strix to take clipped wings, flight isn't really any more powerful than walking. unless you are outdoors on the open plains. most dungeons have low ceilings to make flight impractical, and even if you could bypass traps with flight, all you are doing is saving yourself a handful of hit points and happy stick charges. you pay a price in lower attributes and in having less overall racial powers to work with.
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