What determines the highest level of maneuvers you can take?

Grunker · Jun 24, 2012

In Tome of Battle - The Book of Nine Swords, RAW is a bit weird when it comes to what level maneuvers you can take after "dipping" in one of the Blade Magic classes.

On one hand, it states:

If you are a multiclass martial adept, and you learn a new maneuver by attaining a new level in a martial adept class, determine your initiator level by adding together your level in that class + 1/2 your levels in all other classes. Look up the result on the table below to determine the highest-level maneuvers you can take.

This is re-stated in the table itself.

It suggests initiator level is what determines if you can take, for example, Iron Heart Surge with just a single dip in a Blade Magic class at some point. However, in the same paragraph, the rules says as follows:

Your level in a martial adept class determines the highest-level maneuvers you can select.

This has left our playgroup understandably confused. Which is it? Does you martial adept level solely, or your initiator level determine the highest level of maneuvers you can select?

Dandu · Jun 24, 2012

I've always played it as using IL.

RUMBLETiGER · Jun 24, 2012

Initiator level is unique in that a single level dip is more useful to you the higher your level.

If you took a single level dip in, say, Wizard, you'd only have access to level 1 spells. It wouldn't matter if you took the dip at level 3, level 7 or level 17, the abilities gained would be the same.

If you took a single level dip in, say, Crusader, you'd have access to Maneuvers as if you were a martial adept of 1/2 all your non-martial adept classes combined, plus a full level for any martial adept classes you have.

Therefore, If you were a Fighter 8 and then took Crusader as your 9th level, you'd have access to maneuvers as if you were a 5th level Crusader (1/2 of 8 is 4, plus 1 level Crusader = 5). You still have the same number of maneuvers and stances that a Crusader gets at that first level, but you have access to up to 3rd level maneuvers. Great way to get Thicket of Blades.

If you were a Rogue 16 and took a single level dip into Swordsage at level 17, you'd have access to Swordsage maneuvers as if you were a Swordsage level 9, which means up to level 5 maneuvers. You still know only 6 maneuvers, can ready only 4, and can have only one stance (like the first level of swordsage) but you could make all 6 of those maneuvers known Shadow Hand maneuvers such as Shadow Stride, Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Garrotte, Hand of Death, Cloak of Deception, Bloodletting Strike and take Step of the Dancing Moth as your stance. For a single level dip, you've gained two teleport abilities, a CON drain attack, a ranged paralyze attack, a 1 round Greater Invisibility and the ability to hover 5' off the ground.

Yes, it's crazy, but that's how it is. Gets more fun when you multiclass 2 different martial adept classes together.

Grunker said:
Your level in a martial adept class determines the highest-level maneuvers you can select.

Click to expand...

This has left our playgroup understandably confused. Which is it? Does you martial adept level solely, or your initiator level determine the highest level of maneuvers you can select?

That line is under "Selecting Martial Maneuvers" and after the explanatory text regarding Initiator level and multiclassing. I've always understood the line "Your level in Martial Adept class" to refer to Initiator level, and after the brief aside they took in talking about multiclass characters, they're now back to assuming most people are thinking single classed.

Grunker · Jun 24, 2012

Our playgroup has played with the initiator rule for the past 5 or so years too, but we hadn't seen the "martial adept" clause before. So now we're in doubt and were wondering a) what other people did and b) if anything official existed regarding that statement.

Nezkrul · Jun 24, 2012

RUMBLETiGER said:
Great way to get Thicket of Blades.

YOu need more than a 1 level dip to get it.

RUMBLETiGER · Jun 25, 2012

Nezkrul said:
YOu need more than a 1 level dip to get it.

Whut?

one level of Crusader nets you 5 maneuvers and 1 stance.

Thicket of Blades requires 1 Devoted Spirit Maneuver, Crusader level 3.

A single level dip at level 5, with 4 levels of something else (=2) and that single level of Crusader qualifies as Crusader 3. The 5 Manuvers you pick up with that dip meet the requirement for Ticket of Blades.

Nezkrul · Jun 25, 2012

RUMBLETiGER said:
one level of Crusader nets you 5 maneuvers and 1 stance.

Read the book, bro. Every single martial adept class clearly states that at first level you pick a 1st level stance, the only way to learn Thicket of Blades is to have an IL of 5 and 2 feats (the two martial ones), have 5 non-crusader martial adept levels and take the 2 martial feats, or to take enough levels of Crusader to learn a new stance and have an IL of at least 5. You can't choose a stance as one of your 5 maneuvers either, that's also in the rules. Stances are counted as maneuvers known only for the purposes of meeting prerequisites for other maneuvers and stances.

RUMBLETiGER · Jun 25, 2012

Nezkrul said:
Read the book, bro. Every single martial adept class clearly states that at first level you pick a 1st level stance, the only way to learn Thicket of Blades is to have an IL of 5 and 2 feats (the two martial ones), have 5 non-crusader martial adept levels and take the 2 martial feats, or to take enough levels of Crusader to learn a new stance and have an IL of at least 5. You can't choose a stance as one of your 5 maneuvers either, that's also in the rules. Stances are counted as maneuvers known only for the purposes of meeting prerequisites for other maneuvers and stances.

... I stand corrected. I had simply figured the Initiator level as the factor that determined Stance level, and I did neglect the actual details of the text that says "First level". You're right, thanks for pointing it out.

You can, however, than acquire it with only one feat, if you have the level in Crusader, you don't need to take Martial Study feat to qualify for Martial Stance, you only need to take the Martial Stance feat.