Hey all.
So in my current conception, of the possibly theoretical IH campaign I am running, stage 1 demiurges seem really cool, and I would like to plan ahead for a somewhat stable intended high point to the campaign as being of this level. However, I am trying to figure out if my assumptions are correct.
I know a given universe can only have one Time Lord. They are the universe. But can a given universe boast multiple demiurges? I mean, a demiurge-1 is basically an overgrown first one that has begun to impinge on the other dimensions -- nothing says multiple first ones cannot reach this point. They are a sentient partial universe, but a universe could be split into multiple partial universes. A universe that had both a demiurge that is an overgrown first one of Madness and a second that is one of Disease would be a rather terrible place, as Madness and Disease would have first become Dimensions in their own right (First One) and then begin to infect the other Dimensions (Demiurge-1). Including each other.
This is probably going to be more feasible if, say, the PCs were mortals who ascended, and worked their way up to first one status (growing into their own planes, and then instead becoming redundant dimensions), and then into demiurge status. The fluff describes it as "THE demiurge reawakens" but in the usual six-dimension universe, nothing seems to say a party couldn't grow into another 3-6 dimensions, and I would assume they could potentially become new demiurges rather than a reawakened demiurge.
To go above stage 1, an adventuring party is basically going to either have to have everyone in the party be demoted to greater god, merge into a single being (not actually unworkable, as they could gestalt together and then take the thingy that makes it so instead of one manifestation you are six avatars, or whatever, or the stuff that gives you multiple manifestations). At least, that's how I understand it -- last time I talked to
UK, he said something to the effect of that there really isn't a way (by the rules) to split off from your host universe into the empty Mazzaloth so that you have may have room to grow, instead of just eating all your neighbors.
So tl;dr, can multiple stage 1 demiurges fit within a single universe, or can only the "main character/party leader" (and I rather dislike the idea of one PC being that much better than the others) be a demiurge, with the others restricted to progressively weaker forms of sidereal? Presumably, only stage 1s could coexist.
I am also rather attached to this idea of hosts of partial demiurges squeezed into one universe, impinging amicably upon one another (that sort of sounds pervish), for other reasons as well; I have been largely working out the upper end of the campaign on the idea of the PCs peacefully coexisting as stage 1 demiurges but not being able to go beyond that point without having to battle or reduce one another -- or to meld.
This also intrigues me on account of that the destruction and assimilation required to become a Time Lord being an effective reason to discontinue divine rank boostage, means there is a point at which you won't need more quintessence for rank levelling, per se. The upside is that you are then free to spend it on other things. Alternately, you could grow more avatars and aspects. Then there's also the peculiarity of demiurge-on-demiurge action (or time lords, etc.) allowing the begetting of new first ones, another good way to use up excess quintessence.
It isn't clearly explained who or where these first ones are attached to in the case of time lords, whether they are free floating (and so doing so enough could allow them to beget new universes) or whether they are within the bodies of one of the time lords. On the other hand its easy to assume that demiurges procreating within a shared universe adds additional first ones and dimensions to said universe.
Finally, omnific abilities... are too rich for my blood, and eventually too many would become stifling. I like the scale of the implied multiple demiurge-1s within one universe setting, as it is essentially the original campaign setting still (albeit ever expanding), but with a single omnific ability being the most discrete prize for conquering the whole universe and becoming a time lord. Demiurges are right below that level. Obviously as only a single being can have assimilated all the first ones and dimensions, it seems only one demiurge-2 can exist per universe, and only a single being can have assimilated all the old ones and planes, it seems only one demiurge-3 can exist per universe.
So yeah. Those are overall my reasons for being intrigued by this idea. It does not really state one way or the other, but are they accurate?
Other questions of the demiurge-power level.
- Picture a basic demiurge with double craft portfolio. Thus, ECL 640, divine bonus +64. Greater Scion of Craft implies related ECL should be used for determining power level of crafted items, and adds +128 to 640; crafter level 728 at this point. Soniferous Creation says you can create items twice as powerful as normal; should I take this to mean the crafter level is doubled, to 1456?
- Making soul objects. It says you can invest up to 10% of your QP into a soul object, making the bearer a 1% god equivalent of you. Unlike with aspects and avatars, this is not a permanent relative sacrifice, correct? So that some sort of forge god could distribute them to mortal allies without being limited to 9 (and infringing upon tthe avatar max of 9).
- Making other artifacts. It doesn't seem like soul objects have a discrete cost in QP, so I'm going to assume it doesn't "crowd out" other weapon properties. Anyway, the question here is: what are the limits on crafted artifacts, rather than the artifacts you are assumed to have in general? How do you determine how powerful of an artifact you can make, rather than build? Is it normal item creation rules (ergo, every 3 crafter items = +1 enhancement, price has nothing to do with it), as opposed to the assumed PC wealth per level of the "auto" artifacts?
In other words: Your average demiurge can have could have 4 items of +320 (armor etc) or +228 (Weapons etc), "naturally." By RAW, you can craft an item of plusses equal to 1/3rd their crafter level, so by RAW, he could make +213 items. Is this the intent (That the max items a normal, non craft focused deity will forge for another will be slightly weaker than his own) or is it the intent that a god will generally be able to craft artifacts of the same power level as his default artifacts?
The craft demiurge could make +485 items by the same token if you assume the RAW casting, or +728 (armor/enhancer) +520 (weapon) if you assume crafter gods can make artifacts to the max of what they would naturally have. The latter seems way more powerful, but remember that in the original RAW method, you can add the full (+485) enhancement bonus and then add as many weapon traits as you please, so long as you can afford it, whereas with the default artifacts approach, weapon add-on features cost against the enhancement bonus as well.
I assume the fact that it uses ECL and not caster level means that a crafter's Talismanic Effect can't be used to turbocharge his crafting level (followed by him making a bigger and better item to use with Talismanic Effect, and again, and so on and so forth)?
- Is it acceptable to simply assume followers, cohorts, sub cohorts, etcetera need to be supplied by gear by the boss (if the player wants) and so you just give them the zero equipment ECL rating, then allow let the PC to build gear for them out of their own pocket as they see fit?
- Having a crafter is sure to be crazy-go-nuts in terms of whonking with the wealth-by-level stuff. Is it okay to assume that, whatever the crafter PC does, you just use the default "ECL with gear" figure instead of having to torture yourself by calculating and recalculating ECL and XP all the time? The point of a crafter in 3e is the ability to make half price items at the cost of XP afterall.
- Controlling multiple layers, and I assume having elder ones who you rule over multiplies your divine retinue bonus by the number of layers controlled. Should controlling multiple planes or dimensions not contribute, or should they contribute the same as layer, or should they contribute more than a layer?
- Inspiration from other media as to what multiple demiurges developing within one reality, dimensions impinging on others, and new dimensions being formed within one reality, are always wlecome.
So in my current conception, of the possibly theoretical IH campaign I am running, stage 1 demiurges seem really cool, and I would like to plan ahead for a somewhat stable intended high point to the campaign as being of this level. However, I am trying to figure out if my assumptions are correct.
I know a given universe can only have one Time Lord. They are the universe. But can a given universe boast multiple demiurges? I mean, a demiurge-1 is basically an overgrown first one that has begun to impinge on the other dimensions -- nothing says multiple first ones cannot reach this point. They are a sentient partial universe, but a universe could be split into multiple partial universes. A universe that had both a demiurge that is an overgrown first one of Madness and a second that is one of Disease would be a rather terrible place, as Madness and Disease would have first become Dimensions in their own right (First One) and then begin to infect the other Dimensions (Demiurge-1). Including each other.
This is probably going to be more feasible if, say, the PCs were mortals who ascended, and worked their way up to first one status (growing into their own planes, and then instead becoming redundant dimensions), and then into demiurge status. The fluff describes it as "THE demiurge reawakens" but in the usual six-dimension universe, nothing seems to say a party couldn't grow into another 3-6 dimensions, and I would assume they could potentially become new demiurges rather than a reawakened demiurge.
To go above stage 1, an adventuring party is basically going to either have to have everyone in the party be demoted to greater god, merge into a single being (not actually unworkable, as they could gestalt together and then take the thingy that makes it so instead of one manifestation you are six avatars, or whatever, or the stuff that gives you multiple manifestations). At least, that's how I understand it -- last time I talked to
UK, he said something to the effect of that there really isn't a way (by the rules) to split off from your host universe into the empty Mazzaloth so that you have may have room to grow, instead of just eating all your neighbors.
So tl;dr, can multiple stage 1 demiurges fit within a single universe, or can only the "main character/party leader" (and I rather dislike the idea of one PC being that much better than the others) be a demiurge, with the others restricted to progressively weaker forms of sidereal? Presumably, only stage 1s could coexist.
I am also rather attached to this idea of hosts of partial demiurges squeezed into one universe, impinging amicably upon one another (that sort of sounds pervish), for other reasons as well; I have been largely working out the upper end of the campaign on the idea of the PCs peacefully coexisting as stage 1 demiurges but not being able to go beyond that point without having to battle or reduce one another -- or to meld.
This also intrigues me on account of that the destruction and assimilation required to become a Time Lord being an effective reason to discontinue divine rank boostage, means there is a point at which you won't need more quintessence for rank levelling, per se. The upside is that you are then free to spend it on other things. Alternately, you could grow more avatars and aspects. Then there's also the peculiarity of demiurge-on-demiurge action (or time lords, etc.) allowing the begetting of new first ones, another good way to use up excess quintessence.
It isn't clearly explained who or where these first ones are attached to in the case of time lords, whether they are free floating (and so doing so enough could allow them to beget new universes) or whether they are within the bodies of one of the time lords. On the other hand its easy to assume that demiurges procreating within a shared universe adds additional first ones and dimensions to said universe.
Finally, omnific abilities... are too rich for my blood, and eventually too many would become stifling. I like the scale of the implied multiple demiurge-1s within one universe setting, as it is essentially the original campaign setting still (albeit ever expanding), but with a single omnific ability being the most discrete prize for conquering the whole universe and becoming a time lord. Demiurges are right below that level. Obviously as only a single being can have assimilated all the first ones and dimensions, it seems only one demiurge-2 can exist per universe, and only a single being can have assimilated all the old ones and planes, it seems only one demiurge-3 can exist per universe.
So yeah. Those are overall my reasons for being intrigued by this idea. It does not really state one way or the other, but are they accurate?
Other questions of the demiurge-power level.
- Picture a basic demiurge with double craft portfolio. Thus, ECL 640, divine bonus +64. Greater Scion of Craft implies related ECL should be used for determining power level of crafted items, and adds +128 to 640; crafter level 728 at this point. Soniferous Creation says you can create items twice as powerful as normal; should I take this to mean the crafter level is doubled, to 1456?
- Making soul objects. It says you can invest up to 10% of your QP into a soul object, making the bearer a 1% god equivalent of you. Unlike with aspects and avatars, this is not a permanent relative sacrifice, correct? So that some sort of forge god could distribute them to mortal allies without being limited to 9 (and infringing upon tthe avatar max of 9).
- Making other artifacts. It doesn't seem like soul objects have a discrete cost in QP, so I'm going to assume it doesn't "crowd out" other weapon properties. Anyway, the question here is: what are the limits on crafted artifacts, rather than the artifacts you are assumed to have in general? How do you determine how powerful of an artifact you can make, rather than build? Is it normal item creation rules (ergo, every 3 crafter items = +1 enhancement, price has nothing to do with it), as opposed to the assumed PC wealth per level of the "auto" artifacts?
In other words: Your average demiurge can have could have 4 items of +320 (armor etc) or +228 (Weapons etc), "naturally." By RAW, you can craft an item of plusses equal to 1/3rd their crafter level, so by RAW, he could make +213 items. Is this the intent (That the max items a normal, non craft focused deity will forge for another will be slightly weaker than his own) or is it the intent that a god will generally be able to craft artifacts of the same power level as his default artifacts?
The craft demiurge could make +485 items by the same token if you assume the RAW casting, or +728 (armor/enhancer) +520 (weapon) if you assume crafter gods can make artifacts to the max of what they would naturally have. The latter seems way more powerful, but remember that in the original RAW method, you can add the full (+485) enhancement bonus and then add as many weapon traits as you please, so long as you can afford it, whereas with the default artifacts approach, weapon add-on features cost against the enhancement bonus as well.
I assume the fact that it uses ECL and not caster level means that a crafter's Talismanic Effect can't be used to turbocharge his crafting level (followed by him making a bigger and better item to use with Talismanic Effect, and again, and so on and so forth)?
- Is it acceptable to simply assume followers, cohorts, sub cohorts, etcetera need to be supplied by gear by the boss (if the player wants) and so you just give them the zero equipment ECL rating, then allow let the PC to build gear for them out of their own pocket as they see fit?
- Having a crafter is sure to be crazy-go-nuts in terms of whonking with the wealth-by-level stuff. Is it okay to assume that, whatever the crafter PC does, you just use the default "ECL with gear" figure instead of having to torture yourself by calculating and recalculating ECL and XP all the time? The point of a crafter in 3e is the ability to make half price items at the cost of XP afterall.
- Controlling multiple layers, and I assume having elder ones who you rule over multiplies your divine retinue bonus by the number of layers controlled. Should controlling multiple planes or dimensions not contribute, or should they contribute the same as layer, or should they contribute more than a layer?
- Inspiration from other media as to what multiple demiurges developing within one reality, dimensions impinging on others, and new dimensions being formed within one reality, are always wlecome.
