Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition

Hussar

Legend
Clearly 4e is the edition least like the others, and with the highest proportion of fans who dislike all other editions, so if you're looking at audience triage in order to turn the ridiculous goal of uniting all the editions into the more feasible goal of uniting most of the editions, then that's the first group you should exclude.

I mean if you look at the discussions in this forum the difference between the opinions of 4e fans and pre-4e fans is as clear as day.

There should be a 4e clone if there isn't already one.

I don't think that this is "clear" at all. 4e is mechanically very, very close to 3e. Aside from some fairly cosmetic differences, there's almost nothing in 4e that does not appear in 3e in some fashion. The math is the same, the underlying mechanics are the same.

3e is mechanically, far, far more different than every previous edition than 4e is to 3e.

The big difference in 4e is the flavour. But the underlying game? Naw, they're pretty darn close. Almost as if they are both d20 systems.
 

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FireLance

Legend
To quote the great Terry Pratchett from "The Truth" (quoted from Truth, har har :p):

"When people say 'clearly' something that means there's a huge crack in their argument and they know things aren't clear at all."

:]
 

pemerton

Legend
4e is the most recent crop of D&D fans, and it's only been out 4 years, so it's not likely that a whole lot of them have become set in their ways and edition-insistent, after all, they've made the switch to every new edition, they have a record as 'adopters.'
Some of us who play 4e didn't play 3E.

My reasons for not wanting tactical rules as the default assumption are:

1. They assume the use of miniatures and grid.
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "tactical", but it is possible to have RPG combat mechanics that require intricate and signficant mechanical choices from the players without requiring grid and minis. Rolemaster would be one example. Burning Wheel would be another.
 

SKyOdin

First Post
I think this may be a false premise. It seems to me that it was neither nostalgia nor tradition that made D&D a household name, at its zenith in popularity, and presumably, its most profitable (which is what WotC really wants). Perhaps it was popular due to the game's simpler design? Perhaps it was because a child could pick up the game and learn to play in a day but there was enough meat in it to keep adults happy? Perhaps it was because it only cost $15 to buy all of the rules you needed to get an idea if you wanted to buy the rest of the game? In other words, perhaps it had a broader appeal than just those that "care about good game design" (and who decides what good game design is, anyway?)

Umm, you do realize that all of these things you just described fall under the umbrella of good game design, right?

The size and cost of the rules is a question of game design.

The "easy to lean with a lot of hidden depth" factor hinges on game design.

So, if you think that a game that is easy to learn and cheap are elements that would help sell a game (something that I think is perfectly reasonable, and probably true), than you design a game to be simple and elegantly designed, such that it would both be fairly powerful and versatile, yet fit into a small, cheap booklet.

In fact, games that take advantage of modern game design often do fit into that description. Games like Reign (which can be bought for $10), or Old School Hack (which fits into 26 pages). Many advancements in game design have been geared towards exactly those factors you describe as key to 1E's success. Bloated, complex rule-systems that require multiple books full of arcane sub-systems tend to be a symptom of poor game design.
 

pemerton

Legend
4e is mechanically very, very close to 3e. Aside from some fairly cosmetic differences, there's almost nothing in 4e that does not appear in 3e in some fashion. The math is the same, the underlying mechanics are the same.
My 3E-fu is a bit weak, but is this really true? I don't think 3E had active metagame player resources like Come and Get It (pre-errata version), or overtly metagamed scaling DCs, or out-of-combat scene resolution (skill challenges), or combat maths (including in-combat healing) deliberately designed to produce a partcular pacing outcome.
 

SKyOdin

First Post
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "tactical", but it is possible to have RPG combat mechanics that require intricate and signficant mechanical choices from the players without requiring grid and minis. Rolemaster would be one example. Burning Wheel would be another.

This is very true.

As a big fan of 4E, I don't think the grid is an important part of what I like about 4E at all. I actually agree with some of the critics that some of the complex tactical movement can be a little annoying to deal with sometimes. But that isn't the core part of 4E. What makes 4E good is the simplicity of the rules language, the elegance of power design, the importance of class/character balance, and the wide array of options the game gives characters of every class.

This is why I always found the idea of a tactical module being put forward as some weird attempt to appeal to 4E fans so strange and silly. Tactics isn't why I like 4E. I would actually really like to see a version of D&D that eschews grids and measuring spell ranges in feet entirely, perhaps in favor of a well-designed arena system like what Old School Hack uses.

Thats the thing, I believe that a D&D Next's goals could best be accomplished by taking a core based on 4E, then stripping off all of 4E's tactical elements, powers, and so forth, and then using that skeletal framework to make a simple, 1E/Basic styled game. Creating a convoluted, sub-system heavy framework then crudely slapping on a tactical rules module doesn't appeal to me at all.
 

Harlock

First Post
Umm, you do realize that all of these things you just described fall under the umbrella of good game design, right?

The size and cost of the rules is a question of game design.

The "easy to lean with a lot of hidden depth" factor hinges on game design.

So, if you think that a game that is easy to learn and cheap are elements that would help sell a game (something that I think is perfectly reasonable, and probably true), than you design a game to be simple and elegantly designed, such that it would both be fairly powerful and versatile, yet fit into a small, cheap booklet.

In fact, games that take advantage of modern game design often do fit into that description. Games like Reign (which can be bought for $10), or Old School Hack (which fits into 26 pages). Many advancements in game design have been geared towards exactly those factors you describe as key to 1E's success. Bloated, complex rule-systems that require multiple books full of arcane sub-systems tend to be a symptom of poor game design.

I see you understood what my post was about, but failed to understand how I parsed it.
 

SKyOdin

First Post
My 3E-fu is a bit weak, but is this really true? I don't think 3E had active metagame player resources like Come and Get It (pre-errata version), or overtly metagamed scaling DCs, or out-of-combat scene resolution (skill challenges), or combat maths (including in-combat healing) deliberately designed to produce a partcular pacing outcome.

I don't know about all of those specific things you mention, but in my experience, switching over to 4E was a very simple process after playing a lot of late-era 3E material. Many late-3E products were clearly test-beds for the development of 4E.

For example, the entire power framework and 4E's complex fighter are strongly based in Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. You could see early (and ultimately unused) ideas on how to rebalance magic items in Magic of Incarnum. Likewise, the Tome of Magic was probably one big experiment of alternate magic systems.

Between Tome of Battle classes, the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and the Player's Handbook 2, it is possible to play 3E with a very 4E feel. Many late 3E classes found in these books have a bigger emphasis on class balance and giving cool class features to all classes. Unearthed Arcana likewise provided many alternate rules, such as reserve hit-points, that later became refined and made central in 4E.

It isn't as refined as 4E, but I think late era 3E could capture a lot of the same strengths. Only as long as you steered far clear of core material, however.
 
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TwinBahamut

First Post
I think this may be a false premise. It seems to me that it was neither nostalgia nor tradition that made D&D a household name, at its zenith in popularity, and presumably, its most profitable (which is what WotC really wants). Perhaps it was popular due to the game's simpler design? Perhaps it was because a child could pick up the game and learn to play in a day but there was enough meat in it to keep adults happy? Perhaps it was because it only cost $15 to buy all of the rules you needed to get an idea if you wanted to buy the rest of the game? In other words, perhaps it had a broader appeal than just those that "care about good game design" (and who decides what good game design is, anyway?)

If this is the case, and some folks certainly think it is, perhaps broad appeal is exactly what will be achieved with 5e. For now, no one can say and we won't know until we see a boom, bust, or more of the same slow degradation of interest after 5e.

Personally, the model I hope to see is something akin to what Design Mechanism are doing with RuneQuest. That is, they have refined the game in all sorts of ways, that runs quite different to the original game (combat maneuvers, simplified skill system, Legendary abilities, Passions, integrated Characteristic scores as skill bases, magic systems, etc). Yet it is written by a long time RQ veteran who understands the cultural aspects of the game, and produces a game that is recognizable to the original brand.

'Good Game Design' itself is something of a subjective term. We hear time and time again why something is 'good game design', yet it isn't successful because it's not what people actually want.

D&D has got baggage, and it needs to be acknowledged in future game design agendas. Game designers who are responsible to the brand ought to be (and apparently are this time around) aware of this.
I think I'll just reply to both of these at the same time. You both make a few similar points, and it would be easier to say the same thing to both of you.

First, SkyOdin already did a good job of replying to the idea that simplicity and good game are somehow at odds. In fact, they are not. A game can be simplicity itself, with rules that could fit on half of an index card and still be well-designed. In fact, it is generally better to have fewer rules in a better-designed game.

Also, I have little interest in talking about the relative popularity of D&D across different ages. People here on ENWorld claim it was most popular during a some early fad period, WotC claims that 3E and 4E both sold better than that and the hobby has just expanded since those years, and I don't really care which is the truth. Besides, if OD&D was a big fad a few decades ago, I wouldn't expect a return to those rules to bring back that fad any more than I'd expect disco and Pong to make a sudden return. Kids these days are different people than kids from the 70s were. They have different interests and hobbies and tastes.

Also, the people who decide what good game design is are typically fans. Usually fans who have a higher skill level, are more experimental, and have more experience with a wide variety of games within the genre tend to be a better judge than others, but generally the more people you have enjoying the game, the better. Good game design is usually proven by a widely happy and loyal fanbase, good long-term sales, and so on. In a healthier industry than the tabletop RPG market, good game design is often well-rewarded, though just like in movies and such good marketing can surpass the value of good design alone, though good design is usually the best way to maintain fan loyalty.

Whether any given person enjoys a game or not is subjective, but the quality of the game design can be determined objectively. For example, if you poll a reasonable sample group of people who have played the game, you can get an objective measure of how the game made them happy. Taking such information from playtests and applying it to improve the ratio of happy to unhappy players is pretty much the central process of good game design. The quality of a game designer can be determined rather easily based on how well they carry out the basic processes of game design (though a large part of it is built upon experience and intuition). In truth, game design isn't about making the most popular or most commercially successful game, but about making the largest group of people in your target audience happy.

The fact that so many people hated 3E, for example, indicates that it is a rather poorly designed game. It tried to appeal to many people, but D&D fans have been complaining about its horrible balance and bloated rules since it was first released, and you can pretty much blame the entirety of the current fanbase divide on the split between happy and unhappy 3E fans. 4e was mostly targeted at the unhappy 3E fans (the marketing made this as plain as day), and was very successful among that group, so I'd say it was well designed in that regard. Meanwhile, Pathfinder was aimed exclusively at the happy 3E fans, and was rather successful at that, as well, though Paizo used more marketing than game design to secure that business.

I think I'm meandering here, but I guess the basic point of all of this is that game design is a real, valuable thing, even if it is not everything.

Also, I'll say that preserving a game's "baggage" is a potential design goal, but not one that appeals to everyone. I, for one, have no interest at all in D&D's baggage. If I were to create a custom D&D variant exclusive to my preferences, then orcs, elves, dwarves, gith, beholders, rust monsters, and pretty much every other D&D sacred cow would all be on the chopping block. I think their loss would make the game more fun for me. Chasing that baggage is simple chasing fan nostalgia, which is a design goal that can often run counter to the goal of making the game appealing to a much broader audience and making the game fun and accessible. It leads to things like 5E introducing a weak Fighter and overly strong Wizard, even though that that exact choice has been hated and despised by countless D&D fans for years.
 

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