Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition

slobo777

First Post
Even if we take the 4d6 at some sort of face value, it doesn't follow that PCs who get teh staff can do that, anymore than the fighter who picks up the wizard's staff can make it launch a magic missile. The hobgoblin is using the staff as an implement to delivers its spell attack.

. . . nor in fact that the fighter that picks up a sword from a monster/NPC that could hit with it for 4d6 would do so.

In short 4E damage for monsters is almost entirely unrelated to their equipment. Players however, get to "build" how their PC's damage is done using complex rules, because it is fun to build and customise a character. And that of course includes their equipment.

This is a core part of 4E, and a major split from 3.5E in which NPCs are built up using essentially the same system as the PCs.

It can also be a source of frustration for people starting or dipping into 4E to find that there isn't any underlying PC-style build for NPCs and their equipment, but that the logic is simply based around target numbers for "suitable challenge at this level".

I would have ruled "It's just a regular Arcane staff implement, worth around 20gp. That hobgoblin made a pact with a demon to get that spell!"
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Let's put to one side that "4d6" damage in 4e isn't an ingame quanity, it's a metagame quantity (ie it may just signal the hobgolbin is to play as a threatening to the PCs - more-or-less the opposite of when I've narrated elite or solo NPC wizards, with 100s of hp, as using magical wards and luck to resist damage).
Huh?

That 4d6 is pretty real to the character that has to eat it, regardless what edition it happens in! :)

As for things with buckets full of hit points, my usual narration goes something like "You did 11 points damage? Good, you nicked it. You're not sure if it noticed..."
Even if we take the 4d6 at some sort of face value, it doesn't follow that PCs who get teh staff can do that, anymore than the fighter who picks up the wizard's staff can make it launch a magic missile. The hobgoblin is using the staff as an implement to delivers its spell attack.
Except there's no mention anywhere of him casting a spell; and even if it was a spell pre-cast "offstage" it'd need to be re-cast before the staff could work again - but the staff just keeps on working.

There's also no mention of this staff being useable by Hobgoblins only.
slobo777 said:
. . . nor in fact that the fighter that picks up a sword from a monster/NPC that could hit with it for 4d6 would do so.

In short 4E damage for monsters is almost entirely unrelated to their equipment. Players however, get to "build" how their PC's damage is done using complex rules, because it is fun to build and customise a character. And that of course includes their equipment.

This is a core part of 4E, and a major split from 3.5E in which NPCs are built up using essentially the same system as the PCs.

It can also be a source of frustration for people starting or dipping into 4E to find that there isn't any underlying PC-style build for NPCs and their equipment, but that the logic is simply based around target numbers for "suitable challenge at this level".
So where in the nine hells is the in-world consistency hiding in all this?

This is one thing 3e, for all its other failings, largely got right: everyone in the game world functions about the same in terms of how they are "mechanically" built. It's consistent - as it should and must be to preserve believability.

If that staff has the power to give out 4d6 electrical damage when a Hobgoblin wields it, then it either has the power to give out 4d6 electrical when I wield it, assuming I pick up the right end; or there's a bloody good reason (and "useable only by Hobgoblins" certainly qualifies) spelled out in the module where it appears as to why it does not.

If the staff itself has no magic to it and the cause for its 4d6 electrical is a spell the Hobgoblin cast, then that spell needs to be written up in the module where it appears as the module has just introduced it to the gameworld and either the DM, the players, ior both may want to use it again...and for consistency it needs to work the same next time as it does this time.

Lan-"shocking, absolutely shocking"-efan
 

slobo777

First Post
Huh?

That 4d6 is pretty real to the character that has to eat it, regardless what edition it happens in! :)

There's also no mention of this staff being useable by Hobgoblins only.
So where in the nine hells is the in-world consistency hiding in all this?

This is one thing 3e, for all its other failings, largely got right: everyone in the game world functions about the same in terms of how they are "mechanically" built. It's consistent - as it should and must be to preserve believability.

This is, in essence, the "gamist versus simulationist" argument, with you taking the role of "simulationist" (at least in terms of character equipment).

The 4E adventure writers *could* have added a special Demonic-pact-for-hobgoblin spell description, and then said that it was available to this hobgblin as part of his special "Hob-lock" class. That may have helped with your desire for build consistency. But 4E simply assumes this kind of thing at its core, and doesn't use space spelling it out in every monster block. 4E as published after all, has already spent all it's complexity/pages in setting out 1000s of options.

Many 4E players "get" this, because they find it easy to throw away the simulationist parts of 3E. Others find it anaethema. One bad side is it does require post-hoc justification (i.e. if the players want to use the staff you have to make up the unwritten bit as DM).
 
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Balesir

Adventurer
Unless the fifth force doesn't necessarily interact with everything, all the time.

An ordinary rock, for example, might happily go through its entire existence without ever interacting with magic. Ditto for a simple pine tree. But an Elf can't survive a day without it; a Dragon, not an hour.

(neat side effect: this also allows one, if desired, to slot our own real world into the game universe by simply saying that for whatever reason the force of magic never - or only very rarely - interacts with it)
So you are going to postulate a force that, in complete contrast to what we know of the other forces, doesn't interact with those "existing" forces unless it feels like it? Just so that "magic" can retain it's place as a "special snowflake"? Well, whatever floats your boat. If I absolutely have to pick an underlying "truth" I think I'll go with something more akin to the World of Darkness (Mage) ideas.

I don't necessarily want the exact same game each time but I do want them to be compatible as much as possible; such that if a character rolled up in campaign 1 somehow reaches the world on which campaign 4 is set it can - with a minimum of tweaking - fit right in.
Compatibility is nice, but it doesn't have to be mechanical. I have used Universalis to generate background happenings for HârnMaster, for example; the same character ports from one system to another with vastly different statistics, but it's still the same character. The statistics map into how events resolve in the world under the mechanics in use; as long as the resolution could conceivably arise under either system in use, the translation is good enough.

I've learned the easiest way to ensure a different game-play experience is to have at least some turnover of players between campaigns.
I would say it's easier to change system, but it's a fussy point; changing players works, too.

Then answer me this: in Keep on the Shadowfell, one of the Hobgoblins at or near the start of the second deck uses a staff in combat that does something like 4d6 electrical to whoever he can touch with it, once per round. This is an amazing item! So amazing that I had to limit its use to three times per day total, once my players got it.

Yet it's not listed in his possessions, nor in the treasure for the room, indicating in theory the party isn't supposed to get it even though they've just seen - and, most likely, felt - it used against them. Why?
Because the Hobgoblin Warcaster (clue #1 ) is casting a spell through an implement.

That 4d6 is pretty real to the character that has to eat it, regardless what edition it happens in! :)
I guess it's a persoanl thing, but I never see hit points as "real" to the character. They have no idea how many hit points they have, or how many they have lost; they just know they are hurt/surprised/off balance/winded/shocked/whatever.

Except there's no mention anywhere of him casting a spell; and even if it was a spell pre-cast "offstage" it'd need to be re-cast before the staff could work again - but the staff just keeps on working.
Clue #1 is that the Hobgoblin is a Warcaster - and I'm going to take a wild guess that that is some sort of, you know, spell caster. Clue #2 is that he has a "Quarterstaff" melee basic attack; I'm going to assume that this is the same staff, since I don't see it as sensible for him to wield two at once. Clue #3 is that the "Shock Staff" attack is rechargable, meaning he cannot automatically cast/use it every turn - it's the monster equivalent of an "encounter" power, since "daily" and "encounter" are typically synonymous for monsters.

So where in the nine hells is the in-world consistency hiding in all this?
The world abides by the system, thus it is consistent. The reasons behind that consistency are not any part of the realm of the game system - they are part of the game world, which is the province of the gaming group.

These "reasons behind the resolutions" are the "underlying meta-system" I have been talking about. They are not a part of the "game system", which just defines how resolutions are made. The game system is how the actual real players at the actual real table decide what happens in the imaginary game world. Why and how those resolutions happen in the imaginary game world is the province of imagination, not of game rules.

This is one thing 3e, for all its other failings, largely got right: everyone in the game world functions about the same in terms of how they are "mechanically" built. It's consistent - as it should and must be to preserve believability.
Consistency doesn't require that all things must be built the same way. Otherwise AEDU characters would be "consistent" where earlier edition characters are not (which, even as a lover of 4e, I think is a ridiculous notion!)

If that staff has the power to give out 4d6 electrical damage when a Hobgoblin wields it, then it either has the power to give out 4d6 electrical when I wield it, assuming I pick up the right end; or there's a bloody good reason (and "useable only by Hobgoblins" certainly qualifies) spelled out in the module where it appears as to why it does not.
The staff doesn't have the power to dish out electrical damage - the Hobgoblin Warcaster wielding the staff does, in exactly the same way as a Fighter wielding a sword has the power to dish out weapon damage, and the Wizard wielding a wand has the power to dish out force damage with a Magic Missile or a Cloud of Daggers.

If the staff itself has no magic to it and the cause for its 4d6 electrical is a spell the Hobgoblin cast, then that spell needs to be written up in the module where it appears as the module has just introduced it to the gameworld and either the DM, the players, ior both may want to use it again...and for consistency it needs to work the same next time as it does this time.
Why? Hobgoblin Warcaster is not a playeable class. If it became so, I would expect such a power to be at least notionally possible (though not necessarily written up). It wouldn't necessarily do the same damage, though, since damage is an abstract, system concept, not a world object concept. There is no "Law of Conservation of Hit Points", nor need there be.
 

pemerton

Legend
As for things with buckets full of hit points, my usual narration goes something like "You did 11 points damage? Good, you nicked it. You're not sure if it noticed..."
That is fine for giant slugs, but doesn't work so well for an elite or solo wizard with 100s of hp. I narrated it as active magical defences (including magically enhanced parrying with their staves).

Except there's no mention anywhere of him casting a spell; and even if it was a spell pre-cast "offstage" it'd need to be re-cast before the staff could work again - but the staff just keeps on working. [/quote [MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION] has covered this pretty thoroughly.

The short version is that 4e doesn't both to call out power sources in monster stat blocks (a pity, in my view, but you can generallly write it in in your mind without much trouble). But if you look at the Swordmage class you'll see plenty of spells that are cast via a melee touch attack. The Hobgoblin Warcaster is doing something of that sort.

If the staff itself has no magic to it and the cause for its 4d6 electrical is a spell the Hobgoblin cast, then that spell needs to be written up in the module where it appears as the module has just introduced it to the gameworld and either the DM, the players, ior both may want to use it again
4e isn't oriented that way. There's no assumption that the hobgoblin' spell is some widely known, generally available thing. The default assumption is that it's a technique that only a few hobgoblins have mastered.

That 4d6 is pretty real to the character that has to eat it, regardless what edition it happens in!
Sure, but all that means in 4e is that the hobgoblin is particularly dangerous (ie cuts through low level PCs' divine providence/sixth sense hit points pretty quickly). The system doesn't tell you whether you should think of that in terms of the hobgoblin's luck, or the strength of the electrical charge, or something else. That's up to the GM to narrate.

(After all, all 4d6 means in the fiction is that the spell can be fatal. But so can a d4 dagger. 4e, in its approach to hit points, takes very seriously the (neo-)Gygaxian idea that, as far as PCs are concerned, they are mostly not meat, but rather the ability or good fortune to stop your meat being carved.)
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
Except there's no mention anywhere of him casting a spell; and even if it was a spell pre-cast "offstage" it'd need to be re-cast before the staff could work again - but the staff just keeps on working.
Why would it need to mention him casting the spell? I don't know what makes you think any of those other things, either. The 'spell' could be pre-cast at the beginning of the day, or cast on the staff once and last as long as the caster lives & wields it.

There's also no mention of this staff being useable by Hobgoblins only.
It's not an item, but a power, so it needn't be described as one. The 'shock staff' is no more a magic item than a fighter's "Thicket of Blades" is a copse of swords. It's a power, /he/ has that shocks a target /he/ touches with a staff.

So where in the nine hells is the in-world consistency hiding in all this?
It's hiding outside of the mechanics, in the way the DM describes hobgoblin warcasters.
 

D'karr

Adventurer
It's hiding outside of the mechanics, in the way the DM describes hobgoblin warcasters.

I totally agree, and this is the rub. This is where 4e had an opportunity to do "ground breaking" work, re-education if you will. WotC could have taken that "introductory" module and very easily spelled out some things. This adventure came out just as the game was coming out, IIRC it came out right before the books even hit the shelves. Even a 10 sentence sideline "designers note" would have sufficed to explain the "rules mentality." Then expand that side note in the DMG and explain the paradigm fully and give examples.

The "problem", and I put that in quotes because it never became one for my group or I, is that the lack of "rules" or explanation for it could be jarring. 3.x had already conditioned the audience to having a rule for everything. Someone that was used to having every little bit of rules minutia explained to them might find the paradigm very uncomfortable. When there was not a rule for everything those that were used to it cried foul, justified or not. The assumption from WotC's part was simply horrible.

Then, unfortunately, the DMG did not go far enough to fill these gaps. It went far, but not far enough. In addition many that had experience with the previous games didn't bother to even read the DMG, or worse pay heed to it's advice, WotC being the main culprit.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
I totally agree, and this is the rub. This is where 4e had an opportunity to do "ground breaking" work, re-education if you will. WotC could have taken that "introductory" module and very easily spelled out some things. This adventure came out just as the game was coming out, IIRC it came out right before the books even hit the shelves. Even a 10 sentence sideline "designers note" would have sufficed to explain the "rules mentality." Then expand that side note in the DMG and explain the paradigm fully and give examples.
Have to agree. KotS felt like a 3.5 adventure hastily converted to 4e.
 

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