D&D 5E Magic Items in D&D Next

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
AD&D doesn't have balanced encounter building rules. It is completely left to the DM (or whatever tables the DM decides to use). So magic items don't "break" anything, because there's nothing to break.
Which is a large part of the beauty of 1e and similar: compared to more recent versions, it's very hard to break.

If we don't have encounter-building (or at least adventure-building) rules in 5E that are at least as solid and robust as 4E's, then 5E will have utterly failed at its promise to unite all the editions. Without 1) assuming a magic item progression by level, 2) incorporating a party's magic items into encounter building, or 3) making magic items pure fluff, I don't see how 5E can possibly succeed at the goals that have been stated for it.

Does assumed item progression lock in a particular playstyle? No, I don't think it does.
Playstyle? Probably not directly.

Design style? Absolutely; and unless a DM knows enough to be able to tweak the system incorporation of magic items into adventure design is going to have an indirect trickle-down effect on playstyle - if players think their characters need magic in order to keep up, they're going to make sure they have it, and that affects play at the table.

Lanefan
 

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dkyle

First Post
Which is a large part of the beauty of 1e and similar: compared to more recent versions, it's very hard to break.

It's a lot harder to break a pile of sheet metal and bolts, than a Ferrari. But that's only because the bar of what we would call "not broken" is much higher with a Ferrari, than a pile of metal. Reduce the Ferrari to a pile of metal, and we'd call that a broken Ferrari.

4E is only easy to break because it actually works well in the first place. That is a virtue, not a flaw.

Playstyle? Probably not directly.

Design style? Absolutely; and unless a DM knows enough to be able to tweak the system incorporation of magic items into adventure design is going to have an indirect trickle-down effect on playstyle - if players think their characters need magic in order to keep up, they're going to make sure they have it, and that affects play at the table.

It is vastly simpler for a DM to include inherent bonuses in place of assumed item progression bonuses (especially when the rules suggest it!), than to create balanced encounters from scratch (or from a fundamentally broken system that doesn't account for magic items). There's really no comparison here.

Also, if we're going back to AD&D, talking about what the "players are going to make sure they have" doesn't track. Before 3.X, players had almost no agency in what items they got.
 

Zaran

Adventurer
What I really can't stand is the whole "Lost Ancient Knowledge" notion that is the excuse to keep players from abusing the magic item system. There should always be a way to learn how to make an item. Whether it's +1 longspoon or Vorpal Bunny Slaying Hammer of Five Parts, there should be rules on how to make them. And it should be 50,000 gold in Exotic items like Orange Dragon Bladders or Black Lotus cards. Not just 50000 gold in glitterstim dust that every artificier might carry in a jar behind the counter. I rather crafting be limited by GM fiat than by rules as written in the book.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
AD&D doesn't have balanced encounter building rules. It is completely left to the DM (or whatever tables the DM decides to use). So magic items don't "break" anything, because there's nothing to break.

If we don't have encounter-building (or at least adventure-building) rules in 5E that are at least as solid and robust as 4E's, then 5E will have utterly failed at its promise to unite all the editions. Without 1) assuming a magic item progression by level, 2) incorporating a party's magic items into encounter building, or 3) making magic items pure fluff, I don't see how 5E can possibly succeed at the goals that have been stated for it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "solid and robust" here. If you mean "as restrictive and precise" it will fail in the other direction. I think things like bounded accuracy are indications that they are trying to move in a more forgiving direction. That is to say, removing some of the impetus to make sure you must finely tune your encounters or the whole thing breaks.

Also, I agree with your assessment of AD&D lacking something to break...it was a good thing and needs to be resurrected.

On the bigger point of uniting the editions...I don't think that 5e has to be any edition to attract players of that edition. So, what is the purpose of 4e's encounter budgets, etc.? Is it that method of encounter design or its results that are important to the game\experience? Personally, I've been pleasantly surprised with the strange things people can accomplish with game mechanics. I've played several OSR games that use newer mechanics to produce very fun old-school feel experiences. I wouldn't be surprised if the new system made the idea of 4e's very precise system obsolete.

Does assumed item progression lock in a particular playstyle? No, I don't think it does. Because "availability of magic items" is not a component of playstyle. That is part of the fluff of a campaign setting.

umm....wow. This took me a moment to comprehend. What you're saying here is true, but only from a deeply gamist perspective. Even in 4e having more items would mean having more options...so I'm not even sure it's true there. That's not a bad perspective, just a bit foreign to me.

"Balanced encounters" vs. "whatever the DM thinks would logically show up" vs. "whatever shows up on the random tables" is playstyle. And without robust encounter building rules, the "balanced encounters" playstyle is locked out, at least not without forcing the DM to play game designer and suss out game balance themselves. Which is difficult, and therefor what I pay game designers to do for me.

Part of the point of Bounded Accuracy is to make the game less confined and more forgiving. If "whatever the DM thinks would logically show up" and "whatever shows up on a table" are more balanced, then its not an issue. Ideally, the amount of effort needed to create a balanced encounter drops so low that its not an issue. As I mentioned, this was not a problem in earlier editions (at least, I never ran into people decrying their inability to decide how many orcs was okay.) It was the constant escalation of attack, save, and skill bonuses that started in 3e which brought this on by narrowing the band of foes that were "appropriate".

The second thing I'd like to ask is "balanced for who?" I have to DM 4e differently when I'm DMing my kids than when I'm DMing other more experienced adults. There seems to be a presumption there that "balanced" somehow has some universally applicable meaning that I no longer believe exists. For a lot of people, what you call "balanced" they experience as "samey". Just to trot it out again:
"With fourth edition, there was a huge focus on mechanics. The story was still there, but a lot of our customers were having trouble getting to it. In some ways, it was like we told people, ‘The right way to play guitar is to play thrash metal,’ But there’s other ways to play guitar.” - Mike Mearls.

On the other hand, assumed progressions are quite easy to adapt to different campaign fluff preferences. Just apply the assumed bonuses as inherent bonuses. As suggested in 4E. And there you have it: both low and high magic item availability campaign settings are supported equally well.

That works for an Un-bounded accuracy (to coin a phrase) system like 3&4es, but not so much when magic items provide things in different directions. Its the stacking of all those bonuses that generates this need for encounter balance in the first place. Eliminating (or restricting) those as much as possible will go a long way to eliminating this balance problem in the first place. (So that they can get on that Fighter-Wizard thing.;))

This isn't an impossible goal, either. There are many Indie games, some weirder than others, where "balance" of this type isn't really even an issue, because it's built right into the mechanics. The ones closest to D&D seem to feature very tightly bounded accuracy.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
I believe the terms you guys are looking for are "robust" versus "brittle". These are different from questions of efficiency and flexibility. 4E is more highly engineered, which makes it high performance in its expected pursuits, and not so hot outside of those. 1E was barely "engineered" at all, which gives it a wider range of expected pursuits at the expense of less performance than what it might have had in any smaller set.

No version of D&D is terribly robust, and this is certainly not a virtue of 1E, anymore than having nothing but a bunch of basic yard tools is a "robust yard maintenance" system. Yeah, the components are hard to individually break (assuming no fools in control), but you can work yourself to death. :p Meanwhile, that 4E lawnmower you've got running like a dream is great for the main yard, but not so hot for trimming the edges or handling low-hanging tree limbs. :p:p

That's not to say that all versions are all brittle, all the time. 4E holds up surprisingly well when wealth is not on the baseline, and 1E is pretty nifty in handling parties of different levels, for example. But as systems, they are not robust in the face of the expected range of play. (3E is more like one of those sophisticated paint sprayers in this analogy. Get it humming, you can do a lot with it, but it breaks in surprising places every third minute. :p:p:p) :angel:
 

Balesir

Adventurer
I love this analogy - and I'll add that there seem to be folk who want D&D (specifically) to be the "Do It All Garden (Yard) Tool". As a 4e fan, I hear this and imagine some sort of lawnmower/hedge trimmer/fence sprayer/soil digger contraption that looks like something concocted by Heath-Robinson and think "no way!", but I think maybe some of the older edition fans imagine an axe with a paint brush strapped to the handle and think "yeah - that could work!" :p
 

If they don't have a way to help a DM that is looking for "fair but challenging" encounters, then I am definitely disappointed. I don't need magic items as "expected by level", or wealth per level, or magic item wish lists, or whatever else they come up with. I just need something that tells me: "How tough do my monsters need to be to become an interesting challenge to the players". If they can tell me "Oh, a +3 Sword of Chilling Frost is worth about more 500 XP in power", I'd be fine, for example. But if they can't even deliver that, then they are making my job as DM difficult for the sake of what - easier design? Not pissing of some costumer that feels offended by such information?

I don't know. But it's another data point that is worrying me.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
[MENTION=710]Mustrum_Ridcully[/MENTION] I agree; I can't XP you right now, but adding a balance-relevant element with no DM advice and information sounds counter to what was originally proposed, let alone being a borked setup.

I sigh, too, because I personally dislike the "magic items have to be doggie treats the GM hands out, not anything the players have any say about or knowledge of" approach as a whole, but at least that could be fixed with a module. If there was decent guidance about the system-value of each item, it wouldn't even be hard to write as a houserule.
 


Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I love this analogy - and I'll add that there seem to be folk who want D&D (specifically) to be the "Do It All Garden (Yard) Tool". As a 4e fan, I hear this and imagine some sort of lawnmower/hedge trimmer/fence sprayer/soil digger contraption that looks like something concocted by Heath-Robinson and think "no way!", but I think maybe some of the older edition fans imagine an axe with a paint brush strapped to the handle and think "yeah - that could work!" :p
In this analogy the best tool for gardening is a bulldozer - once the bulldozer's been through the upkeep is way easier, but there ain't much garden left!

As for the Heath-Robinson analogy, that is in fact exactly what I think (and hope) we're going to get: a core framework with a bunch of disparate modules tacked on that can be removed, added, changed, tinkered with, hammered, bent, folded, stapled, and otherwise abused to allow each DM to build the game system she wants out of the assorted parts provided. In other words, it should be the Do It All Tool.

Lan-"the Swiss Army Knife is always another option"-efan
 

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