Losing Interest in the D&D Next Playtest?

Alphastream · Jul 4, 2012

Morrus said:
It was disappointing to me that the survey closed before my group had chance to participate; to me the whole process is far, far too rapid - as opposed to those who feel that it's far too slow.

The survey was a good one, as was the one before it for the friends&family playtest. It dug deep into various aspects of gameplay and had fields in each section for additional comments.

Along those lines, there is a current survey out which everyone should check out. It includes questions about editions you play, where you play, organized play involvement, electronic devices, and more. It isn't focused on D&D Next, but it is a chance to be heard and represented with the kind of game and play you prefer.

The playtest survey likely ended because the team needed to collect data and iterate. They had internal playtests, then produced a limited version. They made a few tweaks, then did friends & family version. They gathered data from f&f and DDXP, then produced the open playtest version. (There were some significant changes at this stage, as well as earlier). They had the survey... and we can read in the various columns how they are moving beyond that.

Yes, they could keep the survey open while they are moving forward, but it requires looking back to pull that in and adjust. From what they communicated they received a ton of survey submissions. They likely can see the trends well enough and need to put their team's energy on working with those results. Once that version is out we will see the next open playtest.

I've also seen it said online that there are continued limited friends & family playtests of things they want to try out.

It seems to me like a pretty good process. Yeah, it would be cool if they gave everyone something new every week, but that has its own issues, such as forcing them to keep external documents constantly up-to-date and explaining the delta. It sounds far easier than it actually is.

We still have great ways to provide feedback: the D&D Next forums. Those forums are read by the team and it is a great place to add in playtest reports or highlight troublesome issues. The best way to contribute is to start a new thread for the specific topic you are sharing and provide the information in a constructive and clear form.

ColonelHardisson · Jul 4, 2012

It seems to me that a lot has been revealed in this playtest so far, with more being brought to the surface everyday, seems like. Why pile more material out there when the bugs are still being worked out on this batch?

Mentioning Caves of Chaos got me to thinking. I have the playtest packet printed out near where I write this. Also not too far from me is my old, beat-up copy of Holmes Edition D&D, an edition that some people still use today. The playtest packet is bigger than Holmes Edition, even if you include Keep on the Borderlands with Holmes Edition.

WotC did make a point of saying this packet wasn't the complete game, and was meant to include the stuff that they were wrangling with the most. But polished up and added to (with some character creation rules, for example) it could be a complete game. In that respect, I agree with Morrus' point that it seems awfully quick for some to have already burned through that much material, while people like him (and me, for that matter) have yet to be able to scratch the surface.

Alphastream · Jul 4, 2012

Lord Rasputin said:
but ... it's Keep on the Borderlands. Everyone (well, except total newbies) has played it. Once the new mechanics are down, it's easy to see how someone can tire of it.

The playtest packet actually does a great job of providing new instructions and plot hooks not available in the original. The Bestiary together with the Caves of Chaos provides many tools for DMs to still do an accurate playtest but make the playtest interesting.

I've started a blog series on how the D&D Next playtest packet can be used to convert classic adventures for playtesting purposes. Our group has played through Keep on the Borderlands, Temple of Elemental Evil, and Slave Pits of the Undercity. I've converted Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh as well for our next session. In each case we want things to be interesting, but our primary goal is to be able to playtest well for Wizards (our group playtests for various companies often and we take playtesting very seriously).

Argyle King · Jul 4, 2012

Currently, there are 5 main reasons why I'm losing interest.

1) I came away from the playtest feeling as though I am not part of the target audience for the style of game WoTC is producing.

2) WoTC as a company and the designers of 5E have already stated that many of the modules that (I feel) would suit my style the best won't even be looked at until much further down the line after 5E is released. As such, I have quite a while until 5E is released, and then even more time until I am able to the play the style of game I want to play with the system.

3) I do not feel as though my feedback is going to matter. I fully accept that some of my preferences place me in the minority. However, even if that were not the case, I -at this point in time- believe that some of my feedback has probably been dismissed as not being what the powers-that-be want to hear and/or as not being valid. I say this because I see nothing in the responses to the playtesting process so far which seems to suggest otherwise. Again, I understand that I am probably in the minority. I do not hold that against WoTC; however, my wallet does.

4) Other companies are producing excellent material during the lull in D&D progress. I already felt that much of the material provided by other products I buy was excellent and only getting better; now they those products really have no competition as far as WoTC products I want to purchase, I'm only being further distanced from D&D as a product line.

5) I do not feel WoTC means the same thing with a lot of their language that I thought they meant. For example, when 'modularity'* was tossed around as a buzzword, I thought that was great. However, I've come to realize that the word is being used far differently than how I originally thought they meant it. Overall, I feel as though I'm speaking a completely different gaming language than WoTC, and -as such- I do not feel they (as a company) understand what I want out of a rpg experience.

I also do not feel they (as a company) understand why I did (or did not) like certain aspects of previous editions. I suppose this ties in with 2 & 3 somewhat, but the basic idea is that I feel that the game being created is not being created with someone like me in mind. I in no way expect my desires to be the driving force behind 5E; I'm simply saying that I currently feel as though other companies are doing more -in my opinion- to earn my loyalty as a customer.

*This is especially noticeable because one of the other rpgs I play is a modular system, and there's a world of difference between how I am perceiving that product versus how I currently perceive the D&D 5E model.

mxyzplk · Jul 4, 2012

It just makes one wonder what the plan is exactly.

They jammed out some bare bones rules, collected feedback immediately, and then disappeared for a long time.

Is this according to plan? What is the plan? Or did they just toss some stuff out there to try to grab attention?

Lack of transparency about the process bodes ill for the success of a playtest which is notionally about transparency.

ColonelHardisson · Jul 4, 2012

mxyzplk said:
It just makes one wonder what the plan is exactly.

They jammed out some bare bones rules, collected feedback immediately, and then disappeared for a long time.

Is this according to plan? What is the plan? Or did they just toss some stuff out there to try to grab attention?

Lack of transparency about the process bodes ill for the success of a playtest which is notionally about transparency.

There have been multiple blog posts, podcasts, Mearls was on Reddit, there have been interviews, Rule of Three columns, all directly addressing questions put to them. They've also directly said they've been reading message board threads even if they don't post to them. So I'm not seeing how that could be construed as disappearing, and especially not disappearing for a "long time."

PinkRose · Jul 4, 2012

1. "I don't think it's unreasonable for consumers of a product to criticize the speed at which it is produced. "
We aren't consumers! we are getting something for free. 4e players are consumers. 3e players were consumers. D&D Next playtesters are playtesters. We aren't owed one single gram of fun!

2. "They jammed out some bare bones rules, collected feedback immediately, and then disappeared for a long time."
"For a long time" is highly subjective and downright not even close to the perception of the sane. About a month. And disappeared is far from true. Rule of 3 every week and blogs every week give us lots of insight into what is going on. The Artist's article "Dragon's-Eye View" is a great behind-the-curtain look at the Next D&D.

Hang in there. Don't volunteer for the playtest anymore. Play your game of choice. And Have Fun!

Consonant Dude · Jul 4, 2012

Morrus said:
So I appreciate that there are those who blasted through the playtest materials immediately after launch. I envy them: I wish I'd had that opportunity. But I - and presumably thousands like me - aren't that fortunate. For us, new materials right now would hamper our ability to playtest; we simply haven't had the time. And we want to give honest and valuable feedback to WotC; otherwise what's the point?

For me, it felt the opposite to what many are saying. It felt too fast; the survey closed before my group got chance to participate. And I'm sure I'm not alone in this. The odds that I am are astronomically low.

I completely agree with that. In fact, I had to drop cease playtesting 13th Age recently because the publisher's deadline for mandatory feedback was WAY too soon after the release. In roughly a month, I was supposed to absorb a 200-page document. Learn a new game, form a group and teach the game to them, create characters and play enough that I could send valuable feedback so they could throw at us the second version of the game.

Pelgrane Press is totally disconnected from casual gamers and the way they are collecting feedback only shows they don't really care about the process.

WotC's first survey was sent much too soon but I see it as a good sign that they are taking their time sending more material. It looks like they are genuinely interested in gamers' opinion and that it will impact the design in several ways.

I don't need the 5th edition to be rushed at all. Take your time, WotC

nerfherder · Jul 4, 2012

Yeah, I've only managed two sessions so far - too much real life has interrupted our Monday nights. I managed to give feedback after one session, which was sooner than I would have liked, but better than not having any opportunity at all.

Maybe it's because I work in IT development, but I'm finding this testing much more fun than any testing I've done before!

werecorpse · Jul 4, 2012

I have run one playtest session of about 2 hours for 7 people and will run one more tonight, that is probably all we will have time for. We are all 30+ year gamers with busy lives. I am disappointed in the fact that the survey is down (I didnt know it was) as it means we wont be able to put my opinion in.

I hope the feeling we get from running & playing in this playtest will help us be able to put in thoughts & participate more quickly in the next playtest.

I am keen to put in feedback. I was similarly slow to respond to the pathfinder playtest and my group all feel the pathfinder playtest just swept along with great rapidity. The boards were jammed with vocal petitions which it was hard to get through an alternate point if you didnt have hours to spend pushing your claim and IMO it created a poorer version of the game that already existed ( In many but not all areas).- largely it seems due to very vocal lobby groups who pushed certain personal barrows (like Paladins should be really powerful give them more stuff) dominated. Now they have their 3.5+ game, but I hope this will be different.

I am amazed that someone said they have played through keep on the borderlands, temple of elemental evil AND beneath the slavers stockade. really? even in my uni days of abundant free time temple would have taken a whole year to get through.

slow it down I say,