Losing Interest in the D&D Next Playtest?

hemera · Jul 5, 2012

I have dm'd one almost 3 hour game, and played in a 2ish hour game so far. We've slipped it in between our other games, but we've not made it our "#1" priority or anything. We've got tons of other stuff to do. I and another person are on call, couple people have kids. We don't have time to playtest until we burn out.

I'll leave that to the younger generation. heh

El Mahdi · Jul 5, 2012

Morrus said:
WotC might need to take that into account. We playtesters definitely don't.

I Agree. Though people will definitely have their own personal preferences. I don't think it's a problem when people voice their preferences on this to WotC (as in "I think the playtest materials aren't coming out quick enough"...or "I think the playtest materials are coming too fast"), but demanding faster releases or heavily criticizing WotC for their release pace...I think that's definitely foolish, and more than a little smelling of entitlement. I haven't seen a lot of that in the threads about this, but there's definitely been some. Maybe that's what's standing out the most to you...

Morrus said:
General interest waxing and waning a year before release is perfectly normal. It isn't a problem which needs fixing.

I agree also. Though I have no idea if the extent of the waxing and waning is beneficial or not. But yeah, it's certainly normal for interest to wax and wane, and for fan appetites for info/material to be affected also.

Morrus said:
It may be on a lower point now that it was three weeks ago; it'll go up again, definitely. And down again. And then this time next year we'll be inundated with stuff.

No doubt. I'm expecting a flood of marketing at some point, and likely some intensely rabid anticipation/impatience for the official release...just as WotC likely will want it to be.

I of course, will be perfectly reasonable and unemotional throughout this process...there will be no rabid anticipation on my part!

Pseudopsyche · Jul 6, 2012

El Mahdi said:
I don't think it's a problem when people voice their preferences on this to WotC (as in "I think the playtest materials aren't coming out quick enough"...or "I think the playtest materials are coming too fast"), but demanding faster releases or heavily criticizing WotC for their release pace...I think that's definitely foolish, and more than a little smelling of entitlement.

I agree wholeheartedly that WotC doesn't owe the playtesters anything, but I think they're wasting an opportunity by letting the playtesters sit idle for so long. WotC was explicitly aware of certain known issues before they even released the first version, such as inflated PC hit points and undeveloped monsters. Why not work on those while testers play with the first version, and then release new test material at about the time the feedback from the first iteration picks up?

My chief concern is that Hasbro will not give WotC unlimited time to develop D&D Next. I can't blame WotC for being wary of releasing new test material that will be invalidated by the feedback from the first round of testing, but if they simply lack the personnel to digest all the feedback and perform design work simultaneously, then we have a problem. I can only hope that once the core system solidifies, the development of the individual modules will allow for greater parallelism.

Ahnehnois · Jul 6, 2012

PinkRose said:
1. "I don't think it's unreasonable for consumers of a product to criticize the speed at which it is produced. "
We aren't consumers! we are getting something for free. 4e players are consumers. 3e players were consumers. D&D Next playtesters are playtesters. We aren't owed one single gram of fun!

It's not about being owed anything, or some moral or ethical obligation. It's about the fact that D&D players, even in the broadest sense, are a dwindling and disenchanted customer base, and WotC, if they want this edition to do better than the last one, would be well served to use every tool at their disposal to garner the interest of any potential players, including using the playtest as a promotional tool with frequent and substantive releases. Even if they're releasing poor quality material, it's just a playtest, right? (And, not to put too fine a point on it, but where is there to go but up?). So the bottom line is not that WotC is obligated to do anything, merely that some of us stakeholders think they should do something.

And if I'm WotC, potential customers are as interesting to me as actual customers, because I need them both to buy my new game or might I lose my job. One need not be a current paying customer to make meaningful judgments about a company.

Hussar · Jul 6, 2012

Ahnehnois said:
It's not about being owed anything, or some moral or ethical obligation. It's about the fact that D&D players, even in the broadest sense, are a dwindling and disenchanted customer base, and WotC, if they want this edition to do better than the last one, would be well served to use every tool at their disposal to garner the interest of any potential players, including using the playtest as a promotional tool with frequent and substantive releases. Even if they're releasing poor quality material, it's just a playtest, right? (And, not to put too fine a point on it, but where is there to go but up?). So the bottom line is not that WotC is obligated to do anything, merely that some of us stakeholders think they should do something.

And if I'm WotC, potential customers are as interesting to me as actual customers, because I need them both to buy my new game or might I lose my job. One need not be a current paying customer to make meaningful judgments about a company.

What evidence do you have that there are fewer D&D gamers today than last year, five years ago or ten years ago? How can we be a "dwindling and disenchanted consumer base" when you have a hundred thousand members on EN World, which, IIRC, is about double the user base they had five years ago?

People always talk about how gamers are vanishing, yet, where's the evidence? Gen Con last year posted record attendance. Every online venue seems to be growing pretty steadily. Paizo is basically printing money with its Pathfinder line. I haven't heard any numbers on the RPGA, but, the Pathfinder Society seems to be growing pretty well and WOTC's organized play games seem to be trucking along nicely.

What dwindling?
[MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] Unfortunately, I think you're preaching to the choir. This issue is becoming quickly a proxy war for WOTC bashing, just like so many other issues. It has nothing to do with anything other than people thumbing their collective noses and armchair quarterbacking how WOTC is such a terrible company.

Estlor · Jul 6, 2012

My group has played four times so far and we're about halfway through the caves. Two of the party members just reached 2nd level.

But, here's the thing - we're not just stomping through a dungeon crawl adventure. We're trying out different things. We've played with five PCs, with four PCs, and with three PCs (two different combinations). That's helped us to be able to say DDN with five PCs is too easy and with three PCs is too hard. The sweet spot is at four.

We've also experimented with a homebrew "archer" fighter. It wasn't about the background or the feats I made up (which were mostly to make bookkeeping easier for a ranged PC). It was about seeing if the basic fighter abilities still felt like a fighter if you were Dex primary in medium armor and didn't have the slayer theme. We discovered that, yes, fighters still feel pretty bad-ass running around in studded leather with a longbow.

Yes, they haven't given us much and yes, Keep on the Borderlands is kind of a crummy adventure (unless your group really takes to the sandbox style of play). But it's taken us four sessions just to try out all the different sorts of party compositions and scenarios that come up. My group is really just getting out of the 4e mindset so we haven't even opened up the improvisation rules.

Lots more to do between now and the end of summer.

Ahnehnois · Jul 6, 2012

Hussar said:
What dwindling?

I'd go back and reread the columns by Ryan Dancey from around the new year. FWIW, he's about as much of an "expert" as there is in this business.

I would not use organized gaming as a barometer any more than I would use any other type of hobbyist convention as a barometer for anything. Nor would I use online venues as a barometer for a game that is played in person. I would look at the demise of small gaming companies and the gradual death of the FLGS.

[MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] Unfortunately, I think you're preaching to the choir. This issue is becoming quickly a proxy war for WOTC bashing, just like so many other issues. It has nothing to do with anything other than people thumbing their collective noses and armchair quarterbacking how WOTC is such a terrible company.

In our defense, "armchair quarterbacking" refers to a situation in which novices ignorantly criticize experts whose craft they don't entirely understand. The rpg business is different, because there aren't any real experts (at WotC or anywhere else). D&D is a young hobby with little to no educational or professional structure underlying it. It's entirely likely that there are people on ENW (not necessarily myself) who could write a better game or run a better business than anyone in the rpg indistry. Whereas I doubt that any of us would succeed as NFL quarterbacks. Thus, we criticize WotC, but fairly I think. WotC is in a rather tough position, which is to some extent of their own making but is also due to inherently unfavorable circumstances.

Hussar · Jul 6, 2012

Ahnehnois said:
I'd go back and reread the columns by Ryan Dancey from around the new year. FWIW, he's about as much of an "expert" as there is in this business.

I would not use organized gaming as a barometer any more than I would use any other type of hobbyist convention as a barometer for anything. Nor would I use online venues as a barometer for a game that is played in person. I would look at the demise of small gaming companies and the gradual death of the FLGS.
/snip.

But, the demise of the FLGS has been going on for fifteen years. And, if you look at EVERY niche brick and mortar retailer, it's dying. That's because new marketing channels have opened, not because less people are buying or using the product. I'd say Amazon has had much more to do with the death of the FLGS than any number of people leaving the hobby.

Demise of small gaming companies? Who? From where I'm standing, there are still D&D makers and a mitt full of everyone else. Again, are there any real numbers backing this up?

If we cannot look at actual people playing actual games - organized play - what other metrics can we use that aren't just "gut feelings"?

Brix · Jul 6, 2012

Morrus said:
The purpose of the playtest package is not to keep people busy. Nor is it to create buzz. It is to gather quality feedback data on specific points.

Sorry Morrus, but I have to disagree.
Playtests can be part of a business model in addition to the obvious purpose of gathering feedback.. Remember Paizo even sold a beta document (with great success)
The original question was "Losing interest in the D&D Playtest". I still think, that my answer is one point why people might lose interest.

nerfherder · Jul 6, 2012

Just as a runner doesn't need to be in front of the field for the whole race, only when they cross the finishing line, WotC doesn't need to be generating buzz continuously. I am sure that there will be much excitement when the next playtest material comes out. And the next, and the next. And then as we get closer to the release date WotC will ramp it up so that people who lost interest in the 2012 playtest will still be eager to buy the product in 2013.

Losing Interest in the D&D Next Playtest?

hemera

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El Mahdi

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Ahnehnois

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Hussar

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Brix

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