Grenadier Proposal

dammitbiscuit · Jul 5, 2012

I started writing a long-ass thing but realized I was really overdoing it. Let's go with the venerable bulleted list to get the main talking points out there and then, if it's actually necessary, we can discuss further.

Grenadier is one of the most basic, vanilla ATs available for Alchemists. It does two main things:
It gives you a martial weapon proficiency
- This helps you make use of your decent BAB and self-buffs for reliable combat
- Otherwise, you're reliant on your expendable bombs, limited ability to "hulk out" for 1 hour with natural weapons, or crummy simple weapons
It replaces your poisony things with bomby things
- In a regular campaign, poison is something the DM can support by slipping you a little bit of extra cash or opportunities to harvest poisons. In LPF, due to a need for fairness your cash is very strictly regulated. You don't want to waste that on poisons!
- The bomb-related things are for the most part similar to existing bomb-related discoveries. These help you more rapidly improve your bombs to a level where they're somewhat on-par with offensive spellcasting

Very vanilla, very sane archetype. If dramatic class revamps like Vivisectionist are approved, I see no reason Grenadier shouldn't also be allowed. It fills a hole not filled by other archetypes in that it improves your attacks, whereas other archetypes trend towards Weird Science, Morbid Surgery, or Magicallyness.

(Amusingly, I had previously been assuming that all archetypes were simply a part of the base classes - optional builds that serve as a more dramatic version of a ranger's choice between TWF or archery. I didn't actually realize they were from further splatbooks until someone pointed out the Seeker being from a non-approved source in my Sorcerer version of Bipper.)

GlassEye · Jul 5, 2012

Link for those who want to examine the archetype more closely.

dammitbiscuit · Jul 5, 2012

GlassEye said:
Link for those who want to examine the archetype more closely.

Good call. Edited post!

mfloyd3 · Jul 5, 2012

A point to be aware of in evaluating the Grenadier is that it has excellent synergy with some Feats and Discoveries. For instance, the Explosive Missile Discovery (available at level 4) allows an alchemist to infuse a bomb in a piece of ammunition -- This essentially adds bomb damage to weapon damage and dramatically increases the range increment. A Grenadier who takes a longbow proficiency gets an excellent boost. Likewise, the Focused Shot feat allows the addition of INT bonus at short range. This is the alchemist's long suit, so this is a hefty boost.

That said, I don't think the class is at all unbalancing. A well-optimized Grenadier focusing on archery feats is going to be one of the most powerful ranged characters in the game, with a strong combination of single target and area effect damage and the ability to throw out some cool debuffs attached to those bombs. That comes at the cost of limiting melee ability, and of course the perennial bad Will save will come back to bite the Grenadier (and probably the rest of the party).

Just my 2 cp.

HolyMan · Jul 5, 2012

I don't think those abilities should stack. Explosive Missile and Alchemical Weapon.

From what I read the Explosive Missile is poorly written and gives to much, even for it's lvl 4 pre req.

Now for this combo I think they aren't overly powerful. You have limited bombs, limited ammunition, can carry a limited amount of alchemical items(and are throwing money at the monsters when you use them, so don't see this being used every attack).

But back to Explosive Missile.

It allows you to load a crossbow as a free action and doesn't provoke an AoO? I wouldn't get into firearms as they aren't relevant here.

If/when this comes up in a game of mine I would houserule that Explosive Missile be a full round action and not standard.

Don't know what to do here in the LPF as we shouldn't micro manage. I think that we have a great group and won't see to many people opting for or using things like this to abuse. But every once in a while seeing a 1d8+4 + [2d6+4 fire/splash(6 fire)] + [1d6 acid] attack would be way cool.

HM

mfloyd3 · Jul 5, 2012

Urk. Missed the part about Alchemical Weapon and Explosive Missile possibly stacking; I would favor a house rule that says they should not. Likewise, having Explosive Missile should not grant a free reload on a crossbow, that's just silly. I would favor house rules on both.

dammitbiscuit · Jul 5, 2012

I don't know why you would use a crossbow - you can use the first feature of the AT to get a longbow. Unless you're one of those longsword / greatsword types, then I guess you might only be toting the crossbow as backup weapon.

But if you're using a backup weapon that you're not focusing on in order to turn a nice easy touch attack into an attack against AC, you might be an idiot. So yeah, I only see dedicated archers doing this - other people will need buffs to not whiff, so they're not gonna waste a discovery on it.

Mutagen into Dex, whether because you're an archer or you're pretending to be one, pushes your Wis down by 2 points on a class with a poor will save and no incentives aside from "survival" to push Wis any higher than 12 or 14.

Qik · Jul 5, 2012

YES. I love this archetype, and have long thought of making a proposal for it.

My one question is this: it takes a move action to "infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder." Does this include the drawing of the item (like bombs), or do you have to spend an additional action to draw the item as well? There are ways around that, but in general, requiring you to spend one action to draw the item and another to infuse it into a weapon seems to me to unnecessarily (and unintentionally?) hinder the ability. Especially since it scales to a swift and then a free action with level.

Qik · Jul 5, 2012

As far as Explosive Missile: I don't have much of a problem with it and Alchemical Weapon stacking, although I do see the potential for layering a lot of debuffs at lower levels (say, Frost Bombs + a tanglefoot bag). If anything, LPF's ban on crafting lessens the potential for abuse, given the increased (though not prohibitive) cost of alchemical items for an alchemist. If nothing else, any potential problems reflect more on Explosive Missile than Alchemical Weapon.

I think one could rule that using Explosive Missile with a crossbow still provokes an AoO. There's certainly nothing in the text that says it doesn't. I don't see the free loading as a problem, given its limited number of uses. There's also the balancing factor that when using Explosive Missile, you're no longer targeting touch AC. That makes a big difference.

Systole · Jul 5, 2012

I can't imagine it's an extra action to draw the bomb as well. If it were, the description would point out that the stuff to be infused would have to be in hand.

I like the archetype, and I don't see anything too unbalancing with allowing stacking with Alchemical Weapon. It's a neat trick which requires some feat expenditures, but it's not nearly as broken as some of the other archetypes out there. Even if it were borderline, I'd allow it simply for the coolness factor.