Grenadier Proposal

Maidhc O Casain

Na Bith Mo Riocht Tá!
Considering there are feats or abilities (can't remember which and not where I can go looking right now) that grant ONLY the ability to fire w/out provoking, I also think saying that this allows it is reading (WAY) too much into it. I agree with IW, GE and others (shooting still provokes). I also vote YES.
 
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HolyMan

Thy wounds are healed!
Just wish to make sure we are all talking about the same thing here...

Under Grenadier they gain the class feature Alchemical Weapon(Su)

[sblock=So you don't have to look it up.[/sblock]
Alchemical Weapon (Su)

At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question.

The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets. Any extra damage added is treated like bonus dice of damage, and is not doubled on a critical hit. The alchemical treatment causes no harm to the weapon treated, and wears off 1 minute after application if no blow is struck. At 6th level, a grenadier can use her alchemical weapon ability as a swift action. At 15th level, this ability becomes a free action.

This ability replaces poison resistance.[/sblock]

So on my turn I can use a move action to apply the substance and the a standard action to make an attack.

If using a bow or crossbow you still draw an AoO for the standard action. But the move action is a supernatural ability so does not.

Note:
Crossbow users would still need to load their ammunition(unless they applied it to a bolt already loaded).

_________________________________________________

This is my problem area. Please bear with me.

The alchemist discovery Explosive Missile says the following:

[sblock=Explosive Missile]
As a standard action, the alchemist can infuse a single arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm bullet with the power of his bomb, load the ammunition, and shoot the ranged weapon. He must be proficient with the weapon in order to accomplish this. When the infused ammunition hits its target, it deals damage normally and detonates as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb at the target. If the explosive missile misses, it does not detonate. [/sblock]

So on my Grenadier character's turn his actions could be -

Move - Use Supernatural Ability: Alchemical Weapon
Standard - Use Supernatural Ability: Alchemist Discovery Explosive Missile

Both of which do not draw an AoO.

I don't think you can say you use your standard action to use the Explosive Missile Discovery and still draw an AoO from firing a range weapon since it is part of the ability. For it to work the other way you would be saying the character takes two standard actions that round (using the ability and firing).

Now I'm not saying the ability itself is overpowered, fireball beats it hands down. My problem is it allows for a character to do something (a lot of somethings) without consequences to the actions taken.

I've ranted enough. Needless to say this is why I hate splat books, it's like their all written by players for players.

HM
 

vmaaxt

First Post
I'm on my phone, and may be missing it, but where in Explosive Missile does it say that firing does not draw an AoO?
 

Qik

First Post
Well, in the magic section, it says that supernatural abilities (of which Explosive Missile is one) "generally don't provoke" AoOs. I take the "generally" to mean this statement is non-binding. Not sure if there's another entry somewhere else with stronger language.

Point taken, HM, and I'm glad you've raised it: this is why we have discussions over new material, after all. I guess there are a few reasons why this isn't worrisome to me:

1) It's easily fixable: we say loading a crossbow does provoke when using Explosive Missile. Problem solved.

2) It's very circumstantial. It requires a lesser-used range weapon (any range-focused Grenadier is likely to take Composite Longbow as his Martial Weapon Proficiency, unless he's an elf, in which case he's not using a crossbow anyway), a discovery (of which in my opinion there are many more attractive ones), he needs to be threatened, and he needs to burn a use of a limited-per-day item (bomb). All of these circumstantialities make it a rare instance, IMHO.

3) Again, I still haven't seen anything that explicitly says that loading the crossbow doesn't provoke. The Su text is the closest I've come.

Appreciate the thoughts, HM. You're a pro, for sure!
 

IronWolf

blank
Well, in the magic section, it says that supernatural abilities (of which Explosive Missile is one) "generally don't provoke" AoOs. I take the "generally" to mean this statement is non-binding. Not sure if there's another entry somewhere else with stronger language.

Point taken, HM, and I'm glad you've raised it: this is why we have discussions over new material, after all.

Oh, I think I can follow HM's logic on this, just not sure it is correct. But I certain have no issues with people raising concerns. I think we all secretly enjoy debating these finer points, or we wouldn't be here on RPG discussion forums to begin with.

I guess there are a few reasons why this isn't worrisome to me:

Qik said:
1) It's easily fixable: we say loading a crossbow does provoke when using Explosive Missile. Problem solved.

I am not even sure it is broken depending on interpretation.

Qik said:
2) It's very circumstantial. It requires a lesser-used range weapon (any range-focused Grenadier is likely to take Composite Longbow as his Martial Weapon Proficiency, unless he's an elf, in which case he's not using a crossbow anyway), a discovery (of which in my opinion there are many more attractive ones), he needs to be threatened, and he needs to burn a use of a limited-per-day item (bomb). All of these circumstantialities make it a rare instance, IMHO.

3) Again, I still haven't seen anything that explicitly says that loading the crossbow doesn't provoke. The Su text is the closest I've come.

My objection to HM's theory is that the Explosive Missile while a supernatural ability does allow one to do multiple things within a single standard action. But the ability to do that does not *change* the actions that are being undertaken to Supernatural abilities, but that they are still standard (or move) actions as written in the rules.

Qik said:
Appreciate the thoughts, HM. You're a pro, for sure!

Yep - I have no issues with HM raising his points.
 

vmaaxt

First Post
I think IronWol has it right. Adding something to the bolt may not provoke, but firing a ranged weapon while threatened would. Nothing about the ability says that that changes.
 

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